New user flying Scotsman issues

[Paramedic67]

I have no idea where to post this issue, so I'm hoping for some assistance. I have a new layout with is DC consisting of two separate tracks. Everything is working well. I'm using the standard DC Hornby controller. I've purchased a new Flying Scotsman loco, equipped with TTS and DCC Enabled. I may convert to DCC in the future, but for the time being, I want to run as DC, which the box states is possible. 
my issue is the flying Scotsman is unresponsive and does not work. I've proved the track as sound and conducting. i then sent for a replacement loco, and this is dead as well. Any ideas what may be happening. Thankyou 

[Howbi]

@Paramedic........You say DCC is enabled but did you mean DC is enabled. If so, how do you know that?........ I believe that TTS decoders now have DC running turned off when new which would explain why your model will not run on DC.........HB

[Chrissaf]

Just be aware that although the loco should indeed run under DC Control. The Hornby documentation also clearly states that the loco will not make any sounds under DC control.

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You say you are using a Standard DC Hornby Controller ... would this be 'by chance' the Black and Silver R8250. If so, this is not a very good controller as it is designed as a cheap controller for DC Analogue starter sets.

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Although in theory it should run the TTS FS loco, the output of the cheap R8250 is electrically noisy and may be preventing the TTS decoder from detecting the presence of a DC voltage and switching into 'DC Operation' mode.

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As a diagnostic test, try running your TTS loco by connecting a pure DC power source to the track in place of the controller (controller turned off and temporarily disconnected from the track). The purest DC comes from a battery, but being TTS, I would suggest the larger PP9 9 volt battery rather than the smaller PP3 battery, as a proper test is likely to need a power source with a higher current capability. The battery needs to be new and fully charged as the current drawn will be significant.

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If the loco wheels turn using the battery ... then that proves that your cheap set controller is more likely to be to source of your issue.

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If the loco still doesn't respond to the DC of a battery, and given that this is your second TTS loco with the same issue. Then it may be that there has been a change of Hornby policy for this loco [despite what may be written on the box] and that 'DC Operation' has been disabled to prevent an unwanted phenomenon called 'DC Runaway'. It has not been unknown for some other DCC fitted locos to have left the Hornby factory with 'DC Operation' disabled. This issue has come up before on the forum, but not in recent times. The 'Catch 22' situation is that you then need access to a DCC Controller that can write to CV29 to re-enable 'DC Operation'.

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TIP: As a newbie poster on the forum, just be aware that the 'Blue Button with the White Arrow' is not a 'Reply to this post' button. If you want to reply to any of the posts, scroll down and write your reply in the reply text box at the bottom of the page and click the Green 'Reply' button.

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See also – further TIPs on how to get the best user experience from this forum.

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/tips-on-using-the-forum/

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[Paramedic67]

Thankyou, I'll try the suggestions. What I meant was out of the box it has the chip fitted. But I'm running on dc, so I'm aware I won't get sounds etc. the box show dc and DCC compatible. 

[Chrissaf]

Thread bumped to bring to your attention a later edit in my original reply.

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Can you state the Rnnnn number quoted on the box, so that further research can be made.

[ColinB]

Hornby tend to turn off DC compatibility with their DCC TTS decoder fitted locos. They did exactly the same with my Lord Nelson. Just before I was about to send it back, I remembered I bought a DCC controller a year previous, tried it and surprise, surprise it worked. I did mention to Rails that there should be something in the box to say that it wouldn't work on DC, but obviously Hornby deemed it not necessary. Hornby get the fault not found locos back, so if they can afford to do that then good on them. Unfortunately, what you have got to do is either, get someone with a DCC controller, to enable DC control or take the tender apart and replace the TTS decoder with a DC header. Hornby have an issue with DC enabled on their TTS decoders, where they tend to fly off on DCC. Rather than fix it like other manufacturers they just switch it off.

[96RAF]

I think you will find Colin that many other manufacturers are also adopting a default of DC running disabled policy. Several controllers now make note that they do not support DC running at all.

 

Whilst I do not know of any decoders other than TTS that come with DC disabled as default I am sure I have seen advertised some decoders that do not have a DC reversion which presumably is their way of ‘fixing’ the DC runaway problem. When making such claims Colin it would be more convincing if you could quote chapter and verse rather than just cast Urban Myth into the discussion.

[ColinB]

All my Zimo ones work on DC, so what suppliers don't? So far all my DCC decoders do as well, even the Hatton's ones, and they are all recent purchases.

As for the Urban Myth, I was repeating what you told me when my King DCC decoder suddenly took off on its own and yes I did inform Rails that there was an issue with DCC TTS fitted locos, over a year ago. 

This must be at least the third post where someone has bought a DCC TTS fitted decoder and found their loco does not work on DC, so it must be a common issue. The trouble is with software, people update it, but forget to modify the paperwork, in this case the instructions. Returning perfectly good locos is not good for business and the customer, you and I foot the bill eventually. They should put a supplimentary sheet in each TTS fitted loco saying it will not work on DC or at least educate their Dealers.

I am very lucky I understand all this stuff in great detail, but also know enough to realise there are an awful lot of people out there that aren't. So I think they need all the help they can get.

I was just trying to help the guy.

[Paramedic67]

the numbers I found are

R3284TTS

REF01-10003872

R3284TTS-44-355

 

[96RAF]

@Colin

I said ‘...I was sure I had seen advertised...’ so without trawling back through a pile of magazines I cannot confrim my statement about these decoders. If I trip over it again I certainly will post the advert for you.

 

The no DC running controller issue is well known and has been discussed on here before. Some have the option to turn it on or off but some cannot run DC at all.

 

The issue of recent Hornby decoders not running on DC is not confined to TTS, as the latest batch of R8249 also has DC running disabled as default, hence it is not a fault but what could be described by some as an unwanted characteristic introduced by the manufacturer.

 

@Paramedic 67

Please read again Chris‘s tip about NOT using the blue button with a white arrow to reply to a post.

[Chrissaf]

@Paramedic 67

Please read again Chris‘s tip about NOT using the blue button with a white arrow to reply to a post.

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Errored post referred to by Rob now removed.

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Note: Reply using the 'REPLY TEXT BOX' at the bottom of the page ... not the 'Blue Button'.

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Now that you have told us the R number. The R3284TTS is the 'Flying Scotsman'. This is a loco which has come up many times on the forum as a loco that suffers from 'DC Runaway'. Therefore if we assume that your model comes from a later manufactured batch, then it is highly likely that 'DC Running' has been disabled as suggested in previous replies to your question. The box & documentation however is probably still from an original print run where the support for DC Operation is shown as true.

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Hornby will be taking the view that factory fitted TTS locomotives will not be purchased by DC users because they cannot make any sound under DC control, and 'DCC Ready' (DC Analogue) FS models are sold separately for the DC user market.

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Your options are:

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Find someone or a local model shop who can edit CV29 to enable 'DC Operation'.

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Temporarily unplug the decoder from the socket and replace the plug with an 8 pin bypass plug (called a Blanking Plate) until such time as you upgrade to DCC control.

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Implement your upgrade plans early and purchase a suitable controller that can edit all CVs, including CV29 (not all controllers can).

 

[Paramedic67]

thankyou all. So I went and purchased a Hornby select controller. Took the plunge. Blow me down or words to that effect. It still doesn't work. The loco gives a funny sound, may creep an inch then dead. my analogue loco runs sweet as a nut. So I'm perplexed. 

[Chrissaf]

Did you buy the Select brand new or second-hand?

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If you bought it second-hand then it may have a very old firmware version in it. The very early Select firmwares have shown to be problematic with TTS decoders.

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If you bought it brand-new then I would expect (subject to how long it has sat on the retailers shelf) to have firmware 1.5 or 1.6 or 2.0.

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In order to edit CV29 to enable 'DC Operation' you need firmware version 1.6 or 2.0

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Boilerplate text reproduced below for information.

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The current installed firmware is displayed as the very first number to briefly appear on the Select screen as it is being powered up. Expect to see a number between 10 and 20. At the time of writing, the latest version is 1.6 [16] or 2.0 [20] - both the same. These latest versions completely transform the user experience of the Select controller and add the ability to write (not read) all CVs. As well as access to the full F0 - F28 range of functions.

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The upgrade charge is typically £15 plus VAT [£18] plus your sending postage costs. You need to get a 'returns number' from Hornby Customer Services - see 'Contact Us' link at the very bottom of the page.

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If you do arrange to get your Select firmware upgraded, then you will need both the Select version 1.5 full manual and the version 1.6 addendum manual. As the operation of your Select (how to use it) will be completely different in certain areas of operation compared to your current firmware version.

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You can download these two manual PDFs from here:

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/downloads/view/index/cat/12/

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If nothing appears to happen, check your nominated browser download folder for the files as they can download silently in the background.

[Ruffnut Thorston]

Warning bells ringing loudly by here! 😮

 

Quote, Paramedic 67

 

 

my analogue loco runs sweet as a nut. So I'm perplexed.

 

If you are running a non DCC fitted, analogue, loco on the track with the DCC Select controller, I would advise that you cease and desist, or stop, immediately.

 

This is not good for the longevity of the motor in the analogue loco.

 

It is best practice to only run DCC fitted, Decoder fitted, locos on a DCC powered layout, as the high voltage and AC type power can cook a 12volt DC motor.

 

Chris can explain why better than I can... 😉

[Paramedic67]

All sorted. I'm running fully DCC, but the issue was a capacitor in the connector on the track. Removed the capacitor and it's now working.  

[Ruffnut Thorston]

Hi.

 

Great.

 

It's amazing how much trouble a capacitor can cause! 😉