Converting Flying Scotsman to DCC - Help Please!

[Russell90]

Hello all, first post here, though I've been getting a lot of tips from browsing, thanks!

So I'm building my first set as an adult after stopping the hobby many years ago as a child.

I came across a Flying Scotsman set on Ebay with literally 2 mins to bid! So had to rush it as it looked like a bargain (£56) but had no time to research if it would be possible to convert to DCC. I don't mind getting stuck in with wires and soldering if necessary.

But now, before I start ripping things apart, I would really appreciate any tips that anyone can give e.g. how do I open it without breaking anything, how to wire up the R8249 decoder (I have already done some general research on this for different locos), and what do I do with the tender as it looks like a separate motor driven unit not connected to the loco! (That was a surprise).

Thanks in Advance :)

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[Chrissaf]

There have been very many different versions of the FS. So the first thing to do, is to identify which version you have got.

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The coupling post in the very bottom last photo on the tender looks to be made of brass. This would indicate that the loco has an electrical connection with the loco.

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The most likely scenario is that the tender containing the 'Ringfield' motor has the rail pickups for one side of the track. The loco has the wheel pickups for the other side of the track and passes that electrical current through the coupling via the brass coupling post.

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Hornby Service Sheet 131 covers the FS with the split pickups

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This 'split pickup' version can easily be confirmed [this confirmation assumes that when the loco and tender are coupled together that the loco moves OK under normal DC Analogue control].

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So if the loco when coupled to the tender is operable OK, but the tender doesn't operate when it is on the track on its own (without the loco). Then the deduction I have made about split loco / tender wheel pickups is correct.

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This does not stop the loco from being converted to DCC but it may complicate matters. The decoder will most likely need to be co-located with the 'Ringfield' motor in the tender.

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The next hurdle is identifying which variant of the 'Ringfield' motor you have in the loco. The type of 'Ringfield' you have may be the easy or more onerous type to convert.

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Now I openly admit I am not really familiar with 'Ringfield' DCC conversions. So I would be handing further comments on the conversion over to others that are more experienced with this loco type, and this FS loco in particular. But in the meantime, the link below will take you to a page that discusses and describes the various 'Ringfield' motor type conversions.

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https://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/DCC_Page_1.html#Bookmark12

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TIP: As a newbie poster on the forum, just be aware that the 'Blue Button with the White Arrow' is not a 'Reply to this post' button. If you want to reply to any of the posts, scroll down and write your reply in the reply text box at the bottom of the page and click the Green 'Reply' button.

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See also – further TIPs on how to get the best user experience from this forum.

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/tips-on-using-the-forum/

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[Russell90]

Thanks Chrissaf, that's a very detailed reply, much appreciated.

I don't had an analogue control, I'm all DCC! But I'll maybe try and hook up a 9v battery, would that get it going?

And I've done so more digging, this is the loco I believe:

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/nrm-br-4-6-2-flying-scotsman-60103-a3-class-brunswick-green.html

[Chrissaf]

That loco in the URL link is most definitely not the model in your original photos. The loco in your original posted photos was likely made in the 1980's.

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The model in your URL link for one thing is a 'DCC Ready' model with a decoder socket. It is also a loco driven can motor where only the decoder goes in the tender. There is also a mounting in the tender for a speaker if you want to go 'sound equipped'. Thus it is a very recent model. If you look very carefully at the photo in your later link, you can clearly see wires (four) going between the loco and the tender. It is those four wires that indicate that it is a loco driven sound ready loco with decoder socket in the tender. As I said in my opening statement in my original reply, the FS must be the most manufactured loco model over the years with many variants along with many variants of the A4 Pacific Class Mallard.

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[96RAF]

One definite clue as to which Scotty you have is that one axle of the tender is articulated like a loco pony truck. This should stand out when you are persuing service sheets to find out which loco you have.

[Going Spare]

I am fairly certain Chris is right at service sheet 131 (although sheet 131A is perhaps even more relevant because the loco is unlikely to have 'sword' pick-ups being modelled as a late-logo A3 which came out in the 1990s - assuming all is original),  The loco gives every appearance of being UK-made, with chunky bright-metal motion with slot-head screws, single-polarity drawbar and plastic buffers.

The tender body is secured to its chassis by two clips approximately 1/3rd and 2/3rds along each side at the bottom of the body.  Squeezing the front & rear of the body sometimes pops the side clips apart but if not, introduce a fine blade at a corner and work it along the side, prizing the body out slightly until one releases.

[Ruffnut Thorston]

Definitely Margate, made in Great Britain, it's on the underframes! 😉

 

[ColinB]

For £56.00 it has got to be the ringfield based one, unless you gor a really good bargain. Assuming it is, there are loads of things you can do, I have just converted two of my Ringfield based Flying Scotsmen to DCC.

There is enough room at the back of the tender to put a socket and the DCC decoder. I don't know if it is an early or reasonably late ringfield, if it is an early one you might want to modify it so it picks up on the both sets of loco wheels, a lot of the early ones only pickup on one set of loco wheels and use the tender to get the other.

[Fishmanoz]

Please do check out Chris's link to Brian Lambert as he is the authoritative source for the different Ringfiled conversions. Getting this wrong will lead to tears before bedtime as, if the is a connection from LH motor brush to chassis and you don't break it via plastic screws etc, the decoder will blow instantly. 

However there is a clue in the tender service sheet as there is a wire connected to each brush. One will go to the tender post, the LH one is a short connection to chassis.  Disconnect this wire then use a multimeter for a continuity test between brush holder and chassis. It should now show open circuit.  Then just follow Brian Lambert's conversion guide for this type. And best practice is to first install a socket as Colin suggests. 

[Russell90]

Thanks all for all the info. Sorry I couldn't reply yesterday, I was only allowed 2 posts as a newbie :)

Chris, thanks again for keeping me right, it is an older model than the one I thought.

I got it going on a piece of track and a 9V battery presed against the rails, and indeed it does need both the tender and loco on the rails and joined by the brass coupling.

And thanks Going Spare, I got the tender off and now see it is a Ringfield-2, according to https://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/DCC_Page_1.html#Bookmark12 so it will need a nylon screw or some tinkering with heatshrink and insulation!

I may have bitten off more than I can chew!

[Chrissaf]

I got it going on a piece of track and a 9V battery pressed against the rails.

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That is a good sign. That's the main hurdle passed ... the loco works and functions 'as is' in principle.

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The other thing I noticed in your original photos, is that it looks as if the original owner has hacked away at the wheel flanges with a file or similar to reduce their coarseness. The reason for that might be that the wheels are of the really old type with deep flanges that don't run well on modern lower profile track work.

[ColinB]

There is a better way than using the nylon screw. Trouble is with nylon you are trying to screw a parallel thread screw into a "self tapped hole", the nylon screw is in danger of shearing off. If you buy some 4mm M3 laptop screws (off EBay) use them, they are not long enough to touch the chassis. On mine I did tap out the securing holes in the plastic at the same time, to do a better job. As for the loco, if you dispense with the connection between loco and tender using the pin and replace the electrical bin with a two pin plug and socket, on these it is quite easy to make the loco pickup on both sets of wheels in the loco. If you really want to go mad, you can convert it to a 5 pole motor for less than £20, Peters Spares has all the parts if you search. Mine run really well now.

[Going Spare]

Having been made in the 90s, the wheels look to be original (with semi-flanged driving wheels on the centre axle) and should run perfectly well on current standard Hornby track provided the bogie wheels are still at 14.5mm back-to-back to negotiate pointwork.

[Russell90]

Aye, it does sound like a job and a half now!  I'd hoped for a wee bit of soldering and taping the decoder into the tender and that would be it.

 

The insulating screw work is making me nervous...so I'm going to look for a more DCC friendly loco!  I'll keep the carriages and pop the loco onto Ebay, hopefully get enough back to pay towards a newer loco.

 

Thanks very much for all the help....and I'll never make rash last minute "bargain" purchases on Ebay again.  Or maybe I will, lol!

[Going Spare]

I tread warily in this post because my knowledge of DCC is minimal, but I wonder whether we are putting a newcomer off by making the conversion sound far more complicated than it need be.  If the loco is indeed as per service sheet 131/131A, the brush arms are of the rivetted, fold-over type, so there is no need for nylon screws, etc., and the addition of a decoder is simplified?

[Russell90]

Thanks Going Spare!

 

I'm actually greatly encouraged by this group and how much expertise and support there is, and the time people are willing to put into posting answers.

 

I've done some more research, and it it likely that insulation will be needed for the screws.  Particularly the advice from Brian Lambert's guide. But even if not, as you mention, I'm going to play it safe and not start a project I may make a mess of, particulary when the loco does hopefully have some resell value on Ebay before I rip it apart! And as it happens, I found another Scotty on Ebay with the decoder already fitted.

 

I'll start another project with another class of loco that is "DCC" ready and take it from there before getting adventurous. I really fancy Hogwart's Express, not just for the Harry Potter reference, but also becuase I've been to Glenfinnan and Fort William several times and seen the Jacobite in action ;)

Thanks again :)

[Going Spare]

Glad to be able to offer some help.  We are all still learning!  Good luck with building confidence.

[96RAF]

The basic principle with any DCC conversion is to ensure by use of a multimeter that you can isolate the wheels pickups from the motor brushes. Once and only once you have gotten to this stage can you splice in a decode ror preferably a decoder socket.

 

How you achieve isolation varies according to model, some such as ringfields need nylon screws. Insulation of a power transfer post, or simply reorientation of wiring from a live motor housing. Others like split chassis Bachmann locos need a bit more thought but the same principle applies.

 

Once you,get your head round this basic principle the rest is just wiring per the DCC decoder diagrams.

[ColinB]

It is not that difficult to convert a ringfield to DCC, I was just saying what you could do, you don't have to. A DCC ready Flying Scotsman is going to cost considerably more than the loco you have. Even worn out DCC ready locos on EBay go for more than you paid. I have just converted about 10 of my old ringfield based locos. It really is not that difficult.

[Russell90]

Yeah, I found that they were all quite expensive. But one just popped up at £50 "buy it now" with decoder fitted.  Looks legit too, so will go for that and see what I get.

 

And I'll def try a conversion once I get more experience fiddling about inside motors :)

[Fishmanoz]

Are you certain you have a Type 2 because that is not what is shown in the service sheet.  The service sheet shows the last type on Brian's page with a connecting wire going from the LH brush holder to chassis (blow up the photo by clicking on it to show that wire clearly).

 

Looking at yours with the tender body off, is that wire there or not?  If it's there, remove the wire and a multimeter on ohms range should show open circuit and the conversion is dead simple.  If it's Type 2 with no wire fitted, then that same measurement will be short circuit and the more difficult conversion is required to insulate the brush holder.

[Russell90]

Hi Fishmanoz. I looked inside and the wire is not there.

[Fishmanoz]

That settles it then, the more complex conversion. I wonder if the service sheet suggested is incorrect or whether Hornby changed this hardware without changing the sheet. 

[ColinB]

When I was converting my old tender driven locos to DCC, the diggest issues I had were old traction tyres, the small pinion falling off, the loco wheels and valve gear locking up (really big issue) and of coarse the back to back wheel spacing on the bogies. The ringfield bit was really easy, but I suppose each to their own.

[ColinB]

I don't know if I am allowed to put it on this site but I converted about 10 of my tender driven locos to 5 pole, using the units Peters Spares is selling at the moment, and a mismatch of parts from the same supplier and that popular auction site. So in the next month or two (when the virus hopefully dies down a bit), I will be probably be selling my old DCC converted Ringfield motors on that same popular auction site.