Ringfield motor not turning

[Jking]

So I have purchased a second hand diesel loco that was a rough Runner however on it turning up it wouldn't move an inch I'm using a horny select dcc controller and the Loco is analog this is just to check before I put the time into wiring it up with a decoder. I've stripped the ringfield motor and cleaned it, the brushes were a bit dirty but the rest of the motor seemed to be OK and it spins freely with all the gears on. The motor was buzzing in the way analog locos do on the horny dcc system but I can't get any form of movement out of the motor.

The motor is a three pole ringfield motor

 

Sorry about the poor formatting I'm.doing this on mobile.

[Chrissaf]

Trying to test an analogue motor using a Select DCC controller is not a very reliable or conclusive test.

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I'm sure that you are aware that any buzzing you can hear is a sure way of burning out the coils of the DC motor if the loco is not moving.

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Being a 'Ringfield' it is not like a modern Analogue CAN motor and may dislike being powered by the Select DCC track voltage even more than normal.

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But the key things you have not stated in your question are:

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1) What is the firmware version of your Select?

Version 1.6 & version 2.0 have the support for DC Analogue disabled by default.

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2) If version 1.5 or below, have you actually put the Select into Address Zero Analogue support mode?

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You really should desist from using DC Analogue locos with a DCC controller. The risk of damage to the motor is very high indeed, even if only for testing. The damage risk is why Hornby have now disabled the function by default in the later firmware revisions [firmware version is displayed as the very first number to briefly appear on screen when the Select is powered up ... expect to see a number between 10 & 20].

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For testing purposes in the absence of owning a proper DC Analogue controller, use a PP9 9 volt battery, this is much safer for your loco motor than using the Select.

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TIP: As a newbie poster on the forum, just be aware that the 'Blue Button with the White Arrow' is not a 'Reply to this post' button. If you want to reply to any of the posts, scroll down and write your reply in the reply text box at the bottom of the page and click the Green 'Reply' button.

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See also – further TIPs on how to get the best user experience from this forum.

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/tips-on-using-the-forum/

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[ColinB]

Ok, I know nothing about the Select controller, but from my information you cannot put an analog motor on a DCC system. All it does is buzz and eventually burn out the motor. So I am not surprised it is not moving, perhaps someone can enlighten me.

[Chrissaf]

....perhaps someone can enlighten me.

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Colin,

The Select controller [firmware 1.5 and below] has a feature called 'Zero Address'. The feature is not officially part of the NMRA S9 DCC Standard required for 'standards compliance'. The S9 Standard does however discuss the technical aspect of 'DC support' for manufacturers to develop their own solutions which are purely optional for them to implement. The feature uses a technique called 'Zero Bit Stretching' to generate a voltage bias that is either 'positive' or 'negative' depending upon which phase of the 'zero bit' is stretched.

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Zero Address support is historical and being phased out by manufacturers due to its tendency to 'burn out' and damage DC motors. Of all the Hornby controllers (Select, Elite & eLink) only the Select has (had) Zero Address support. Hornby have now disabled the feature in Select firmware version 1.6 & 2.0, albeit there is a Select reset option that allows the feature to be re-enabled again.

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To read more on the history and the technical nature of this feature, read this web article by Mark Gurries, he is a member of the NMRA Standards body.

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DC loco on DCC

More info on Zero Bit Stretching.

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Consider yourself duly enlightened 😉

 

[ColinB]

Thanks Chrissaf for the information. I suppose if they had wanted to they could have made the Select or Elite dual purpose, as you could with any DCC controller, the output stage is effectively controlled by software. So you could probably make the output stage either give DCC or Pulse Width Modulated DC, but it is a lot of complication for really no gain. I can see why they didn't.

[96RAF]

Given a shed load of spare memory the Hornby controllers could probably paint rainbows in 3-D but they have not so can not.

Theory and practice are often worlds apart.

[ColinB]

I know they could but actually making any of them do PWM DC, isn't that difficult. New menu, <DC> <DCC> plus the two output lines need ability to switch zero volts. You already have an encoder to set the speed. As I say not that difficult, but as I said probably not worth the effort and you could only control one loco.

[Chrissaf]

So you could probably make the output stage either give DCC or Pulse Width Modulated DC

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If you read the technical documents I gave the link for, then you missed the important point.

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Doing it your way, would make the controller either a DCC controller OR a DC controller.

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Using the 'Zero Bit Stretching' technology, means that all you are doing is modifying the raw DCC track signal.

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Which means that you can continue to operate (with limitations) your DCC fleet at the same time as operating a single DC Analogue loco on the same layout.

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But as usual, your musing on pure theoretical conjecture is digressing the thread away from the OP's original question.

[Yelrow]

Very informative about Select does or donts, but so far ,no help for poster. where are the motor guys.

[Going Spare]

I don't think the condition of the motor lies at the root of the problem.  Put very simplisticly, the controller is feeding it with AC at a higher voltage than it would normally receive under DC control.  AC is causing the motor to oscillate rather than run in either direction - or am I wrong?

[Jking]

thanks to whoever suggested using a battery, i didnt think off that. It runs a bit rough but nothing a service wont fix I was aware of the damge related issues with running dc on a dcc controller but ive never had a dc loco not run so i didnt think it would be an issue for a 10 second test run to function check the motor before investing in a decoder

[Ruffnut Thorston]

I do believe that a DC motor being fed AC type power would oscillate, rather than spin.

 

In my basic understanding, it would be like super fast turning of a DC controller from forward to reverse....

 

Or, in a different design of DC controller, having the speed up, and flicking the forward / reverse switch back and to very fast, like.

 

😉

[ColinB]

Look Chrissaf I was only saying what they could have done, I wasn't pushing the point. As generally when you receive a new loco you need to test it on DC, before you put in the DCC chip. So if you run DCC you need two controllers. As for the buzzing I had already said that it wasn't a good idea, probably the guy didn't have a DC controller. Not everyone has a PP3 battery close to hand, and it doesn't test it very well anyway. Subject closed.