Elite Control Knobs - no on or off set positions

[garrytheskate]

The contol knobs go round and round in both directiions. As my Elite is secondhand i don't know if this is as it should be or if i've got a problem. I would have expected the knob to be off at say 225 degrees and turn clockwise to max power at say 135 degrees. Also the half circle that shows black segments, the numer of segments increasing as the speed increases, this someitmes jumps about say from two segments to eight segments. Is this norm

Thanks

[garrytheskate]

Many thanks for the reply.

Regards

Garry

[ColinB]

I am pretty sure the ones they use in the Elite and Fleishmann twin track are the really cheap type, which is really is switched type, the magnetic types are tons too expensive for this application. The actual "digital encoder" just gives a switched output which the software interprets to work out how quickly you turned the knob. So dependant on the software interpretation the value can increase or decrease. If you turn it quicker then the software notices the distance between pulses has got smaller and knows that the value has increased. Some of the old car radios especially those in a Ford used the same type of encoder. The ones on my Fleishman are causing issues so I have been looking into them a lot.

[96RAF]

@Colin

 

/media/tinymce_upload/ab5b9ea3160071a4715697172cacda68.png

[Chrissaf]

The Elite control knobs do not use potentiometers, they use digital encoders. What you have described is 100% normal.

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They will rotate endlessly .... this is normal .... there are no physical end stops.

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The control knob is not using a 'potentiometer' they use digital encoders to count electrical pulses in terms of the number and rate of electrical pulses created as the control knob is rotated. Encoders can use different technologies to create these pulses, some use magnetic poles that pass by induction coils to create an electrical pulse.

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They are also sensitive to speed of rotation. If you spin the control knobs briskly then the black segment arc display will increase rapidly in big jumps. If you rotate the control knob more sedately, then the black segments of the arc will increase one segment at a time. If you rotate the control knob slowly, then it may take more than one 360° rotation of the control knob to illuminate one single black arc segment.

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Thus the relationship between control knob rotation position and the black segment arc display is neither proportional nor linear..... this is all completely normal, and as they are designed to function.

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TIP: As a relatively new poster on the forum, just be aware that the 'Blue Button with the White Arrow' is not a 'Reply to this post' button. If you want to reply to any of the posts, scroll down and write your reply in the reply text box at the bottom of the page and click the Green 'Reply' button.

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See also – further TIPs on how to get the best user experience from this forum.

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/tips-on-using-the-forum/

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[ColinB]

@RAF96 I know if you go onto Farnell's web site they are literally loads. I had one from when I worked on radios and that is a completely different footprint. There are are also differing pulses per revolution and number of idents and differing PCB footprints. I mailed Flesishmann hoping they can tell me. For the moment I ordered some cheap ones from China. They work on two pulse trains as it says in the specifification, if you look at both waveforms at the same time it represents a "Gray Code", by looking at the states you can work out whether it is going backwards or forwards. Unfortunately, if you miss a state the software can think it is going backwards instead of forwards, which is the issue with my Fleishmann. When I worked on radios I wrote a load of code to cure it, so it can work with a real rubbish one, so I know all the issues (and yes this time I do really know). 

[ColinB]

Well I mailed Fleishmann and basically got an answer which basically said we don't know. Fortunately the Chinese ones arrived and actually worked, the only issue is that the spindle is too long. I could try to shorten them but given how fragile these things are, I will live with it. I don't know if Elite uses the same encoder, but it will be similar. Interestingly once I got the old ones out, it appears they were made by Alps, but it appears they no longer sell them on RS or Farnell, well not that style. In garytheskate's case I would say his encoder meeds replacing as that is how my Fleishmann first started showing a fault. 

[96RAF]

Here is the footprint Colin

/media/tinymce_upload/f6c4b76d762c959c1376369abfb2e01a.png

[ColinB]

Yes RAF96 that one would fit the PCB, I would have to change the knobs, that one has a "cut out" whereas mine has splines. The ones I fitted work perfectly, in fact they must have always been a bit dodgy as control is much better now and I have 3 spares. I didn't realise that was the one from the Elite. The thing they don't mention in the spec is that  when you sample the two edges you have to wait a little after the edge happening as because it is a mechanical switch you get a bit of switch bounce as the edges change. I imagine as the switches get older so the "bounce" gets worse, which is why the software gets confused. The really good thing about the Fleishmann is that you can control two locos simultaniously. The Elite one obviously comes from Japan or China.

[96RAF]

The thing they don't mention in the spec is that  when you sample the two edges you have to wait a little after the edge happening as because it is a mechanical switch you get a bit of switch bounce as the edges change. I imagine as the switches get older so the "bounce" gets worse, which is why the software gets confused.

 

Probably why you get that infuriating case of setting a number, go to press and it has notched up or down one, so you have to do it all again. I hold the knob against rotation with finger and thumb on one hand and press with the other hand now.

[ColinB]

Yes, I am glad I am not the only one it annoys. I was thinking of writing to them and mentioning that a good software upgrade might be to use the ACC key in certain instances as an enter key. The problem is as you pust the knob down to enter something it moves slightly and puts in the next number, again you could easy fix it in software by remembering the value before the switch was pressed and not change the value if it happened withing a certain time of pressing the switch, but I must admit it isn't something you think about in design. It is easier to just multifunction another key. The Fleishmann has the same system but I haven't noticed it doing it, but I suspect that bit of software is a bit better, mind you the Elite is tons easier to use, so they got that right.

[garrytheskate]

Thank you Rob for all the info. I started this thread way back in July '20 but other things took over so I have not spent much time on model railways.

My question now is are there still suitable encoders available and from where.

Best regards

[ColinB]

I bought the encoders for my Fleishmann off EBay, they worked perfectly ok. I think the Elite uses a slotted spindle to hold the control knob whereas the Fleishmann uses a serated spindle. They are a cheap switch that is a cheap make or break switch that gets fed by a resistors from the main board, there was a link on one of these posts as to where you can get them. We used virtually the same item in a Ford car radio. The biggest trouble is that the Elite expects an absolute perfect switch so when they get old you start to see lots of issues.

[Chrissaf]

See this previous thread.

Elite Encoders - replacement items

[96RAF]

The part you need is PEC11L-4215F-S0015. Available from several Electronics suppliers.

This code will give you the correct rating, spindle length and knob attachment.

To save you hunting out the page here is a direct link to the teardown article referred to in the forum post that Chris linked to.

http://www.halton96th.org.uk/page12.html