Electrofrog Points and Hornby Accessory Decoders

[PeterCook]

Hello all, I have a complete hornby layout. I have a question in this. If I change some of my Hornby points out for Peco Electrofrog points can I still use my hornby accessory decoders to work them or do I need to change to a different decoder for the points. I would also change points motors to peco and add the switch to the point motors for switching the power to the point frog.

Any help would be muchly appreciated.

[96RAF]

I don’t have electrofrog points but point actuation is totally separate from the track side of things, so yes you can still use Hornby PADs to operate your solenoids. Any switching of frog polarity (phasing in DCC) is outwith the point bus side.

[Chrissaf]

I use Hornby R8247 Accessory Decoders with PECO Electrofrog points.

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However I would avoid the PL-10EW PECO point motor. The W suffix is the PECO loW energy version and has green coils. My R8247 decoders just would not operate these low energy coils at all. In theory, the standard PL-10E PECO solenoid motor with black coils should be OK, but I have not specifically tried them with a R8247 decoder.

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Note I couldn't return my PL-10EW motors for a refund or PL-10E replacement as I had them in storage for 6 months before I got round to using them. I ended up using a 'relay' solution. The R8247 operated the relay, the relay contacts then operated the point motors via a separate and external PSU and CDU.

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I use the PECO switches on my PL-10EW motors for a full PECO Electrofrog switched frog implementation. I used a combination of the PECO PL-13 and also some PL-15 switches. In my experience it is well worth paying the extra for the PL-15 switch as it is based upon proper switch contacts that are adjustable and so much less hassle to install and set up (align) compared to the PL-13 switch which has to be glued on. The PL-15 also incorporates a mounting plate to ease the fixing to the underside of the baseboard negating the need for PL-9 mounting plates. The PL-15 switch is also a DPDT switch so has an additional change-over contact that could be used for a signal or point position indicator. I did however, find the PL-15 switch plastic rather brittle so do not over tighten the mounting screws.

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You also say "change out your Hornby points for PECO Electrofrog points". Note that PECO SL Electrofrog points have a completely different geometry to Hornby points and are not a 'one for one' replacement. The surrounding track will need to be adjusted to suit with most likely the need to use flexitrack as some track may need to be cut to custom lengths. PECO Electrofrog points are longer than Hornby, thus they occupy more space lengthwise compared to Hornby set track straights. They are also designed for 50mm track spacing [Hornby is 67mm]. PECO ST SetTrack that does match Hornby geometry do not offer any Electrofrog options.

[Somerset Modeller]

Use frog Juicers for electrofrog points, easiest way to control polarity to the frog and even if point is set wrong the frog juicer will set the frog correctly without shorting the track.

[ColinB]

The points are not the issue, electrofrog points are just normal points with the bits of plastic removed. The more important issue is the motor and how much current it consumes.  I am surprised the Hornby R8247 doesn't work with the low energy points, that is what they were designed for. They should work better as they draw less current, unless they have some current sensing circuit in them to detect movement, but if that was the case then they won't work with gaugemaster ones which are of similar design. I must admit I was not impressed by the PL15 it looked like something out of the sixties and too flimsy, and the contacts are open to the elements (not a good idea in a dusty enviroment). I use commercial microswitches attached directly under the motor, if you want dpdt switch you are better off using a relay, remember the force to fire this microswitch is coming off the same pin that fires the point. The PL13 switch is just awful, give it a couple of years they don't work anymore (contact oxidation) and put excessive force on the motor, meaning quite often the point doesn't even move far enough. I assume a frog juicer is the same as an auto frog.

[Flashbang]

Hmm... Some excellent advice and some poor i'll informed too!

As stated, the Peco SL-Exxx electrofrog range of points or their identical Insulated frog points in their SL-xxx range are not a direct drop in replacement for any Hornby point or even the Peco Setrack range (which are identical to Hornby).

The Hornby accessory decoder should be able to operate any make of solenoid point motor. If it can't its not up to the job and possibly not worth owning!   The Hornby accessory decoder has a single built in CDU shared between all four output ports and takes all its operating power from the DCC system. Therefore it is necessary to allow a second or two between each points operation to allow the internal CDU to reach a fully recharged state after any previous operation.

All Peco Streamline (Electrofrog and Insulated frog) points need a track centre to centre spacing of 50mm where as Hornby and Peco Setrack are to 67mm. So a Streamline point in either format cannot be a direct drop in replacement for any Hornby or Peco Setrack point.

Electrofrog points work straight from the box new (there are two exceptions, see below) and need no added switching, usually Electrofrog points have two Insulated Rail Joiners (IRJs) fitted to their two Vee rails.  Then new rail feeds are added after the IRJs of the correct polarity.  There is one exception where an IRJ is not needed in a Vee rail and that is where a track leads away to a dead end siding and no other rail feeds are connected to that sidings rails.  But best practice is to always fit IRJs and then add feeds after them.

The exceptions to working directly from the box are the Peco SL-E Three way point and their SL-E Double slip point which do need frog polarity switching.

Additional improvements can be carried out where an Electrofrog point is used. The main one is adding some form of point or position operated change-over switch that feeds the frog area and back feeds to the moving switch rails.  Beyond this, a further enhancement is the opening up of a gap in the two closure rails (Some Peco Electrofrog point have these factory fitted, but are linked out by fine under rail wires which are removed). Then the closure rail to its adjacent stock rail is bonded together by a soldered on wire to the rails undersides on the pivot side of the gap, on each side of the point. These bonding wires can be extended to below baseboard and act as rail dropper feeds to the points.  But this last modification can only be carried out with frog polarity switching employed.

You can use under point fitting or line side fitting solenoid motors.  Such as Hornby R8014,  Peco PL10/PL1000, Seep/Gaugemaster PM10 or PM1 / PM2 or PM4 or other makes of solenoid motors. For surface and directly adjacent to point use Hornby R8243, Peco PL11 or Seep/Gaugemaster PM20 etc.  All will if frog polarity switching is needed require some form of additional switching - Micro switch operated by eitehr the drive pin of the point motor or the moving points tie bar (Stretcher bar) or use a Latching relay wired into the solenoids three operation wires, these being such as the GM 500 or GM500D where accessory decoder feeds the solenoid. Then via the contacts of the micro switch or the latching relay the Electro frog is feed.  

An alternative is to use an auto frog switch, but only on DCC rail powered layouts. Such devices and not limited to are... Frog Juicer, Gaugemaster DCC80 Autofrog or the BlockSignalling Frog1 to name but three devices. There are others too.

But remember, no frog switch is needed for most Electrofrog points (It is an enhancement) and Peco SL-E or SL points are not direct replacements for any Hornby or Peco Setrack points.