Queen Elizabeth Xo4

[RDS]

Hi, Hope I have the correct group. I have two old Queen Elizabeth Triang, not sure the precise date of either. Both motors are fine, run with 9v battery and wires I connect using blu tac on the battery. However, on the track one goes slowly and the other not at all.

I have the original style wiring on one, which will run slowly on the track.

I have replaced the cap/suppressor on the other with the new version but it will not run - my soldering is ok.

Both sets of wires show good continuity and I have cleaned both trains as well, wheels and pickups, and pickup plates.

The brushes seem ok, the commutator has also been cleaned.

I would like advice on two things:

(a) I have noticed that the insulator is on different sides of the motors, does this matter? Or, does it mean the magnet is orientated differently on both? The insulator ought to be on the positive, I am sure I am getting it to work the other way round on the train that does not run on the track? 

(b) I have read there is a new upgrade to the wiring to dispense with the capacitor/suppressor

Do I have the following correct?

Run a lead from the pickup plate direct to the positive brush and solder direct or use clip.

Run the negative lead from where ? the earth screw the capacitor was connected onto? and then run to the back of the motor and solder.

Any advice welcome, hope I have expressed my issue with sufficient detail.

regards Andrew Meyenn (Melbourne Australia)

 

 

[96RAF]

There are several folk on here who will be able to advise in detail about these older but usually very reliable motors, but my guess would be a motor that runs free but cannot drag a loco round the track has a weak magnet. Remagnetising is possible. If the magnet has been removed without fitting a keeper then it loses its magnetism very quickly. 

[Ruffnut Thorston]

Hi.

 

The "Queen Elizabeth" is a Princess Coronation Class locomotive of the LMS Railway.

 

Earlier Tri-ang Hornby models with the X.04 motor were made in blue or maroon (red) liveries. Alternative names and numbers were supplied with some models.

 

"Queen Elizabeth " was one of these names.

 

The insulator on the brush spring of the X.04 type motors should always be on the same side. 

The pick up wire should be connected via a metal clip to the brush on this side.

 

Soldering to the brush itself will work, but makes brush changing more invloved.

 

/media/tinymce_upload/305c13682a345b36027f2b05847c3e22.JPG

 

The magnet polarity only affects the direction of rotation of the motor, therefore the direction of travel of the locomotive.

 

Connecting the motor incorrectly can cause a short circuit. This should trip out the controller, therefore the loco would not work.

 

Note, polarity reverses to reverse the direction of travel. So Positive will change. Best to describe positive as the insulated driving wheel side.

 

Older models have wiper pick ups that bear onto the insulated driving wheels.

 

A wire from the pick ups goes to the brush clip.

 

Joined into this wire is the suppression capacitor, some models may also have an inductor in the wiring.

 

The suppression capacitor bridges between the pick up wire, and the chassis block.

 

The loco will work without a suppression capacitor, but it may cause more radio frequency interference . Also, in some cases, sparking at the brushes may increase, causing brushes to wear out faster.

 

The return ( "negative") path goes from the non insulated brush, the brush spring, motor, motor fixing screw, chassis block, and through the axles to the non insulated driving wheels to the rail.

 

There is usually no "negative" wire as such.

 

/media/tinymce_upload/6382876a36ff2cfd93b976c22733646f.JPG

[Ruffnut Thorston]

Some information on the locomotive models here..

 

/media/tinymce_upload/7010217946a65f401a1d3a30b9751a59.JPG

 

Maroon....

 

/media/tinymce_upload/c438294e38517c23003b60a8b746948f.JPG

http://www.hornbyguide.com/item_details.asp?itemid=62

 

 

 

Blue...

 

/media/tinymce_upload/021b14d1f2c64e496c2afd4cbc3e171a.JPG

 

 

 

http://www.hornbyguide.com/item_details.asp?itemid=99

[Ruffnut Thorston]

Later X.04 motor Service sheet with more information...

 

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[myan01]

 Hi Sarah,

Many thanks, I have read through and have seen the service sheets previously.

This link http://www.hornby-railway-trains.co.uk/Parts/Hornby_Motors/Wiring_kit_for_X03_X04_Motor/Wiring_kit_for_X03_X04_Motor.htm

covers the issue, I have written to the supplier but no response.

I will create some pictures, but can you decipher what they mean in terms of "One wire is approx. 70mm (2 3/4") long and is fitted with a new eyelet to fit under the nut for the screw. The other wire is approx. 90mm (3 1/2") long and is fitted with a new pin to contact to the motor brush."

I take it the 3 1/2 inch wire runs from the pickup plate to the brush with the insulator. The positive.

The 2 3/4 inch wire seems to be soldered to the engine block and then runs to the screw on the block ie where the capacitor was connected. Hence is negative.

Does that make sense to you?

Kind regards Andrew Meyenn

[Ruffnut Thorston]

Hi.

 

As the return, or "negative" path is entirely wireless on the locos as made at the factory, I cannot see any need for a "negative" return wire at all.

 

The confusion seems to stem from the supplier using a Scalextric car RX motor in the illustration.

 

As Scalextric cars are mainly plastic, and the pick up and return are via "braids" that run along the metal strips either side of the slot, then a "negative" return wire IS needed.

 

The ring terminal is attached to the magnet screw (or bolt) between the motor bottom plate and the magnet screw nut.

The photo is at an angle, so that the nut isn't visible, and it does indeed look like the wire is soldered to the motor itself. But it is not.

 

The "pin" is the same as used on early Tri-ang Railways and Tri-ang TT Gauge locomotives.

 

It is a tube that fits over the insulating sleeve on the brush spring. Basically, it's an eyelet, rivet, similar to those used to fix couplings to wagons.

 

This is instead of the later brush clip, that fits between the brush and the fibre board brush retaining diaphram, as shewn in the service sheet.

 

The "pin" fitting will work ok. Care needs to be taken that no part of the pin contacts the metal of the motor, or the brush spring, otherwise a short circuit could be caused.

 

The suppression capacitor would have a ring terminal on one wire. This would be attached under the head of the motor fixing screw, above the fixing lug on the motor bottom plate. As on the service sheet.

Some locos have the suppression capacitor ring terminal attached to the chassis with a separate screw. Generally these are earlier models.

 

The other wire from the suppression capacitor should be attached to the "positive" feed wire.

 

Factory wiring from the pick up plate is in two pieces, as on the service sheet, with the capacitor wire soldered into the join between the two pieces. Often there is an insulating sleeve over this three way joint.

 

The supplier should really think about supplying the correct wiring for locomotives, rather than that suited to a Scalextric car?

 

 

http://www.hornby-railway-trains.co.uk/Parts/Hornby_Motors/Wiring_kit_for_X03_X04_Motor/Wiring_kit_for_X03_X04_Motor.htm

 

This supplier does also do a site for Scalextric cars.

 

http://www.scalextric-car.co.uk/index.html

 

[Rana Temporia]

Sarah, thanks for the info on the eyelets. I have had a number of early Tri-ang locos with them (princesses and Jinties) and thought they had been retro-fitted but that Explains them. I have also had a much later Nellie with one which may have been factory fitted, maybe they ran out of the clips? 

[Ruffnut Thorston]

in some ways the eyelets make it easier to remove the brush from that side, the clip can be fiddly to remove and insert correctly.

 

 

 

[Rana Temporia]

I fully agree About them having advantages. I think I have a bag of coupling rivets somewhere, I might start to use them for that if I can't find one of the clips next time I'm fixing something out of a scrap box. 

[myan01]

Thanks Sarah.

In theory, one could dispense with the capacitor.

Run a wire X from the pick plate to the positive brush.

Run a wire off X using the eyelet to screw onto the block where the capacitor wire connected to.

Good experiment, I'll let you know how it goes if it does that is!

Andrew Meyenn.

[Il Grifone]

Running a wire from the pickup side to the locomotive chassis will cause a short circuit. The capacitor does not pass D.C. current, only A.C. The low value of the capacitor (usually 470pF) ensures that only high (i.e. radio) frequencies pass, shorting out interference. (The impedance at mains frequency is very high and can be ignored.)

The locomotive will function perfectly well without a capacitor, but it should be fitted to meet radio inference regulations.

The convention with 2 rail wiring is that the locomotive will run forward with the right hand rail positive. Reversing the polarity will cause it to run backwards (obviously).

[Ruffnut Thorston]

Yes, there is no need for two wires,

 

If you really want to dispense with the suppression capacitor, then there is only one wire needed, from the pick ups to the brush clip, and thence to the insulated brush.

 

The return path is entirely wireless, metal to metal contacts.