Hammant and Morgan controllers

[Chrissaf]

This web site should be of interest to you. At the very bottom of the page is a clickable link to the HM3000 Schematic Circuit Diagram. Note that I was able to see the schematic without having to fill in the form.

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http://www.stable-cottage-potterne.co.uk/HM3000index.htm

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The web site owner may have the manual document you are looking for, contact him via the website.

[Split09]

Bought a H&M clipper circa 2016 and added a multipack slave. The end of old locos not running on the layout.  Ancient Lima pancakes from the seventies and even older Hornby stuff that originally came with Jouef track from France?!  She runs old and new with vigour and finesse. Noisy, though. Never looked back

[ColinB]

Why has someone restarted this thread? Anyway, I have learn a lot in the mean time. The reason a manufacturer would say not to use a particular controller is that it would do damage to their product. In the case of Oxford I can understand why. My Adams loco has a lot of SMD components on the circuit board that feed the motor, these are probably rated at 16 volts maximum. H & M controllers have no electronic regulation so you can easily get peaks of 18 to 20 volts, so basically would damage an Oxford loco, in fact I am sure that is what fried the input choke. This also applies to running on DC with a loco fitted with a DCC decoder, I could not understand why the decoder "smoked" and died when running with my H & M decoder, until I measured the voltage. So yes in their day very good controllers, put them anywhere near a modern loco with electronics fitted (Bachmann diesels have tons for lights etc), forget it. You can fix it by adding some decent smoothing to the transformer inside the H & M. 

[Split09]

Why has someone restarted this thread? Anyway, I have learn a lot in the mean time. The reason a manufacturer would say not to use a particular controller is that it would do damage to their product. In the case of Oxford I can understand why. My Adams loco has a lot of SMD components on the circuit board that feed the motor, these are probably rated at 16 volts maximum. H & M controllers have no electronic regulation so you can easily get peaks of 18 to 20 volts, so basically would damage an Oxford loco, in fact I am sure that is what fried the input choke. This also applies to running on DC with a loco fitted with a DCC decoder, I could not understand why the decoder "smoked" and died when running with my H & M decoder, until I measured the voltage. So yes in their day very good controllers, put them anywhere near a modern loco with electronics fitted (Bachmann diesels have tons for lights etc), forget it. You can fix it by adding some decent smoothing to the transformer inside the H & M. 

 T'was I. Glad I did. Plenty of information there. Thanks

[RDS]

@Norbug

I have removed your post because it appears that all you have done, is clicked on the Blue square against someone else's post without adding any of your own text.

 

Please Note:

The way to reply to posts on this Forum, is to scroll to the bottom of the page and type your reply in the White area and then select the Green Reply icon.  I can assure you that we Moderators have tried repeatedly with Hornby to have the Blue icon removed completely (without success so far!)

[Norbug]

I feel honoured that i have a H&M product I will treasure it from now on

[The Doc]

Like many have found, my old H&M Duette works very well even with the most modern motors (using full wave, high resistance setting).  What puzzles me is that my Oxford N7 runs very poorly with a (modern) Gaugemaster Tech 6 controller (when set on Analogue control, I hasten to add) - it runs very slowly and soon grinds to a near standstill -  but is fine with a Gaugemaster feedback controller.  All my other locos run well with the Tech 6 controller, so there must be something unusual about the N7 motor.  It looks very narrow - fitting into the boiler of the model - but I've not read anything about it being unsuitable for certain controllers otehr than on here.  Does anyone know more about this particular motor design, which is possibly the same as in otehr Oxford locos?

[96RAF]

If it were my loco I would be contacting Oxford Rail and asking them the question about the suitability of running their motor using the said controller. Enclose a copy of the controller spec if you have one. You should get a professional answer from their design department.

[ColinB]

Surprisingly the controller I got with my Pendolino is great. Ok it is PWM so the locos buzz a bit, but it seems to drive all the locos properly. My H & M Duette failed about 6 months ago, I was amazed when I took it apart it took me back to the sixties and physics classes at the time. Wire wound rheostats, very little insulation around the mains components, as I have said in my earlier posts I can understand why a modern manufacturer wouldn't want it near their product. Then there is that nice metal case, great if you get a mains insulation fault and your earth wire has fell off. Oh I forgot, on mine it doesn't even a cut out button, oh and then there are are all those switches for half wave rectification etc. I am still trying to figure what they are for and do they make a difference. The only thing I like about it is the control, turn it one way it goes forward turn it the other it goes backwards. These things were really meant for Hornby Dublo, Triang and Wrenn locos. With mine if I ever get round to it I will replace the insides with a modern power supply, and make up a circuit that can emulate that really nice feature of going backwards and forwards.

[Yelrow]

I have 9 H&M duettes and clippers, all bought secondhand, and all taken to a highly reputable firm of Electrical Engineers for evaluation, and testing. Each one was given a very safe bill of health. I find it particularly disturbing that someone, should therefore post on here, such comments, which may cause people concern. These controllers, were made for Hornby Dublo locos, which draw more grunt than the newer locos, and, of course are not as sophisticated, as the newer Morley, or Guagemaster controllers. For those of us, whor run Hornby Dublo, they are , perfect for the job. Of course the interior components, are of the day, and go back many years, but that in no way,    means they should be not suitable for purpose. I have 85 locos, 3 rail, 00, HO, and TT. All these are run weekly using these controllers, in which, i have total faith. No locos, have ever been damaged, or been a problem. These controllers cope with Hornby, Triang, Mehano, Roco, Fleischmann, Bachmann, Marklin, Dapol, and Budd locos. It is true, that i have not bought  any new locos from these manufactures, for the past  7 years, but if i were to do so, i would have no problem, running them with my H&M controllers.   We must of course, form our own views, but in all my years posting on many forums, have never seen a post, where these controllers, have failed, or any reported loco damages, attributed to them. I know, through personal contact with many 3 rail owners, that they mostly use/ recommend these controllers.   It may well be the case, that todays locos, with inferior motors are better run by newer controllers, so be it, but for me, i remain, fully H&M committed.

[ColinB]

Ok, yelrow it appears every time I put a post I upset you. It is my opinion that I consider them not to be as safe as a modern double insulated controller and I am sure most people will agree. I won't go on about how I know because people on this site get upset. I also said they were designed for Horny Dublo trains which is what you run, if you tried running an Oxford built loco you would probably be reaching for the fire extinguisher.  Ok, so you got them tested all that means usually, is it passed a standard test, I doubt they opened it up and studied it in detail. You cannot dismiss the fact that they are housed in a metal case and that the transformer that does the mains, has nowhere near the standard of insulation to today's standards. Take a look at a modern controller, generally the mains is in a separate box, this is so it is easier to obtain the all important CE rating.  All I am saying is if you want to run modern locos or let your children play with them get yourself a modern controller. I have a number of Wrenn locos and I used a pwm controller to control them which incidentally worked much better than the H & M controller I have. You have an H & M controller you are happy with, so lets just leave it at that.

[96RAF]

I would rate John (yelorow) as an authority on these controllers as he has very many of them, has had the sense to get them professionally tested and he is a long term user across a wide range of loco brands and gauges.

 

Such experience carries more weight with me than the odd they must be rubbish type of comment from those who likely do not even own one and thus have no experience of their use.

 

In my experience when someone obviously knows their subject - it is sensible not to argue with them.

[ColinB]

Where has my post gone and why then do you persistantly argue with me. Electrical Engineering is something I know an awful lot about, but then that is you.

[ColinB]

Seeing as you keep going on about it, I took mine apart. I don't know what all the fuss is about, it is a transformer feeding a multiplate bridge rectifier, the sort that were on car alternators in the 1980's feeding a rheostat. The bridge rectifier is incredibly large for a 1 amp supply. From what I remember of my old Triang controller nothing that different. To make it work with modern locos you would at least have to put something like a 2200 uF capacitor across the output of the bridge rectifier. I don't know why you would want half wave rectification, but I can see the other switch changes the value of the rheostat. Typical 1960's design. Mine must be a bit later as it has a sticker on the front saying it is double insulated, I don't think that was popular until the 1970's. Just as a comparison, this gives the same output on one channel as my Hornby PWM one, except the Hornby one if about an eight of the size and yes my Hornby one runs my Wrenns ok.  Oh and it appears to contain asbestos, the rheostat is wound round an asbestos core. My wife died of asbestos even though she never touched it in her life, so I think I know where that is going.

[Rana Temporia]

I suspect that a lot of older model railway equipment contains asbestos and I have mentioned it on here before. Asbestos was used for all sorts of products long after they knew it was dangerous simply because it is so useful. It is in all sorts of things that you wouldn't think of Including some plastics, concretes, bitumen, decorative panels, artex, electrical as well as heat insulation, filler, adhesives etc. 

 

I have to admit that I like my old H&M clippers and my old Tri-ang controllers. They work with my old locos, but I also like and now prefer my home made PWM controllers. I have had a second hand Clipper that I got tested that was putting mains voltage down the 12v controlled output. Not good! Like a lot of older electrical equipment they weren't made to modern standards. I still have two valve amplifiers, you can put your hand in and get 400v with plenty of Amperes behind it with not much difficulty. They are also easily and fully repairable. Modern versions are much safer but not repairable (and don't sound as good). If you are using modern locos the modern controllers are probably fine. My experience hasn't been very good with them to be honest but then I run mostly older locos. 

[ColinB]

Thanks Rana Temporia that is the sensible type of answer I like to see. I agree with you entirely, I must admit I was surprised when I saw the asbestos, but then I thought back to my early days in electronics and that is how you made a high wattage resistor. You just wound some resistance wire around an asbestos core. Thankfully I only did it once. I am sure if you made a decent series regulator it would probably work as well, trouble is commercial ones are made to a price. 

[ColinB]

This is really wacky, a post that disappeared on Friday night has just appeared. In my case the said H & M controller is in the bin, once I found it contained asbestos which was near a moving part (the voltage adjust). I assume that is why probably around the 1980's they got redesigned, I think that was when the asbestos regs got bought it.

[Chrissaf]

Colin,

If you look at the third / fourth [subject to platform viewed on] line down on your reappeared post. Look to your spelling of Hornby.

 

Obviously the original post was captured by the profanity filter on Friday and placed in a queue for admin approval.

 

I happen to be aware that a particular Hornby admin member is working from home today and catching up with outstanding admin tasks as I have had email dialogue with this admin person an hour ago on another unrelated matter. Hence why your approved profanity captured post suddenly appeared.

[ColinB]

Oh that is OK Chrissaf, I figured out that must be why. It has done it before but previously I have noticed it and corrected it. Thank you though for pointing it out, I fully understand that if someone has to review it it going to take time, so no problem. As I say it was just I couldn't understand where it was disappearing to, I have had instances where the web page has had issues and you are never sure it has accepted it.

[96RAF]

When the profanity filter traps a post it puts a flag at screen top saying so, unfortunately this is normally just off visible screen so tends to be missed by the poster who thinks their post has just gone in the wind.

 

For HM collectors here is a handy source of info.

https://www.binnsroad.co.uk/railways/handm/index.html

[96RAF]

Reposted from a different section on behalf of another member. These are not my words or opinion.

The Hannant and Morgan Duette and its single version Clipper are state of the art Controllers! Even though these haven't been made for fourth years as Hornby took over Hannant and Morgan in 1982 it seems certain locos that are inconpatable with these controllers saying it would burn the motor amature out and putting warnings in loco boxes so does the same apply to the Triang P5 Controller! Get the facts I have many modern Hornby and other manufactures locos these work fine with the Hannant and Morgan Duette controller and Hornby don't put controller warnings in their loco boxes! H&M may no longer exist but bad mouthing their products isn't on these controllers are wonderful I have the Powemaster state of the art I think Hornby should do more controllers like H&M used to do as it was the seal of quality and I will continue to use my Duette and Power master as I love using these sturdy reliable controllers!!

[Gordon-1278237]

Hello. I'm new to this. I recently bought a Clipper and a Commander for my recently re-instated 2 main HD 2 rail loops. They worked fine separately but the two locos interacted when supposed to be running independently. Both controllers affected the speeds. I checked the wiring logic and even took it apart to apply an HD track plan. No joy. Then I separated the Commander from the Clipper and put in one of my Hornby Marshall 2's. No interaction! It appears the 16V AC feed between the Clipper and a Commander affects the performance of both locos. Surely this would not have happened originally? Can any of you experts help me please? Fingers crossed and a Happy New Year to you all.

[ntpntpntp]

Do you have common-return wiring on your layout? I seem to recall the controlled DC output and the uncontrolled DC of the Clipper use the same transformer secondary winding (but I may be wrong). Common return layout wiring requires independent secondary windings for each controller otherwise you can experience interaction as you've described.

Do you have any crossovers been the two track circuits? Again that can cause a similar interaction unless you fit isolating joiners between the points of the crossover.

I have a Clipper and the Multipack add-on controller for it, but I've always wired my layouts with totally separate circuits. Incidentally I replaced the resistance mats in the H&M boxes with Gaugemaster 100 panel mount controllers many years ago (I kept the original transformer). The H&M units are now an emergency backup for my main N gauge hand-held controllers.

[Gordon-1278237]

Dear NTPNTPNTP, Thanks so much for your amazingly prompt and considered response. No, it's a good question but I don't have common return wiring. The 2 circuits and goods/shunting section have separate controllers all wired individually, the Clipper and Commander as described and a Marshall 3 for the goods/shunting section.

Your second point about crossovers is again very helpful. As a kid I had 3 HD 2 rail circuits, each with 1 or 2 crossovers. I had a Marshall 3 and 2 Marshall 2's. I used a double isolating rail on each circuit and there was no interaction. When I started up again a month ago, I set it up as I remembered, but had upgraded my Marshall 2's to the two H&Ms which were always the gold standard for control. Then I got interaction. I tried various solutions and yesterday dug out HD Track Plan no.11 for 2 circuits, 2 controllers and 2 crossovers. The wiring supposedly gets round the problems caused by the notorious 2 rail points with their live frogs, so I simplified the layout and set that up. It worked, but only once I'd replaced the Commander with a Marshall 2.

This morning, having seen your response, I connected the 15V AC output from my Marshall 3 to power the Commander and got the same interaction. Maybe there's a fault with the Commander?

I'm impressed that you replaced your resistance mats with Gaugemaster 100 controllers. That seems pretty radical, but clearly it worked for you. I've checked eBay for them and others. From ads for Duettes (which I favour for nostalgia and space saving compared with separated controllers) I found handem electronics UK. Presumably they are known to this page and contribute to it? Thanks again.

[sagaguy]

These controllers need separate transformers for correct operation.H&M controllers are getting a bit long in the tooth now,I and most of my contempories use Trax Handheld controllers these days for our HD 3 rail and 2 rail layouts being fed by 16vAC from Gaugemaster twin output power supplies,these will work on common return through a DPDT switch to allow a train to pass from one track to another under the control of one controller.

Ray.