HM7000 System

[E100]

Hi,

I've been reading through the thread but also listening to a lot of the press on this.

Ideally I would like to continue using my digitrax system and add the HM7040 legacy adapter. In a number of videos it's talked about as being compatible with controllers with an RJ12 conforming to NRMA spec. This would mean that a digitrax system will work.

However, in a post on page 2 it's said "It works with a Select and an alien controller with native Xpressnet bus, like Z21 and maybe others using the R845 (?) bus" which would preclude plugging this into a digitrax system as the sockets are loconet.

I'm a little confused as to which is true?

If it does require an Xpressnet bus, I believe I am correct in saying that the HM7000 chipped locos can still work just only via the app. I would though love to see an additional dongle to be compatible for loconet even if considerably more expensive and this would no doubt gain many more customers.

Thanks,

Andy

PS A couple of extra questions. If one had their own speaker could this be hardwire connected i.e. instructions are to which solder tabs are which. Also the same question but for stay alives.

[Rallymatt]

Thanks SteveM6 and 96RAF

on that basis I am in! If only to get sound decoders and access to appropriate sound files and CV settings the easy way.

I committed early to DCC so my TT120 layout is already set up with DCC Concepts ADSX units running points, signalling and I have a very expensive sound decoder on order from Piko for my BR130 ‘Ludmilla’

If a suitable dongle for the Dynamis comes along then it could be Bluetooth all the way!

[E100]

Hi,

I'm a little confused. In some places it says all that is needed for the legacy dongle to work is an RJ12 socket and for the DCC system to be NRMA compliant but on here its said that there must be a native xpressnet bus socket. Could someone help to clarify as I have a digitrax system so I'm unsure if this would work.

Thanks,

Andy

[pd91223]

Sorry if I've missed this, but is there a list of all the sound files that will be available at first release of the App?

[P-Henny]

I'm a little confused. In some places it says all that is needed for the legacy dongle to work is an RJ12 socket and for the DCC system to be NRMA compliant but on here its said that there must be a native xpressnet bus socket........

 

 

RJ12 is a specification for a physical plug and socket type. Whereas eXpressnet is a data protocol. An RJ12 plug and socket may used for the eXpressnet protocol but can also be used for other protocols that are used in model railways as well. For example, LocoNet to name but one. You will need to consult your controller manual to see which protocol is supported on any RJ12 socket your controller may have.

Edit: According to Google, Digitrax uses the LocoNet protocol. Therefore I suspect it is unlikely to be compatible with Hornby's eXpressnet dongle. But this really does need Hornby tech services to confirm or not.

[96RAF]

This is a provisional screen grab listing, but the available list at app launch is dynamic, depending upon how far they have gotten at the time.

Add to this the three smoke equipped locos , P2, FS and Black 5.

[pd91223]

@96RAF

Many thanks, Rob.

Quite an interesting and varied list - even an EMU! Any idea how good they are compared to, say, Legomanbiffo or Zimo?

[Fishmanoz]

On the set supplied DC controller being marginal on current and maybe not working, definitely not working with 2 or more locos, the internet is awash with 15 v DC 4 Amp supplies at under £10 or the price of a couple of coffees.

[Rallymatt]

I bet lots of people have suitable transformers gathering dust in draws and cupboards from various appliances, obviously check the specifications stamped on the transformer!

[null_null29]

And again for Sean - you do not need to buy any DCC controller. Control is via the free App downloaded to your phone or tablet.

 

 

There is conflicting information here, as SeanTT correctly points out the video below says that if the track is powered with DC then there will be no sound from HM7000 sound decoders.

 

 

 

 

In this case a hardware DCC controller is required to provide power to the track and that is a considerable extra expence if not already owned (which for a new TT hobbyist it probably wouldn't be).

 

 

Could anyone throw light on which interpretation is correct please? Thank you.

 

 

I would have thought that any hardware DCC controller, not just Hornby's, could be used for this purpose, since it only seems to be the DCC wave form on the track that is required to get sound. Anyone know?

 

 

[null_null29]

OK I read the rest of the thread now. It seems the video at

is not quite correct.

As I understand it if the track is powered with DC (either by directly connecting a power supply or an analogue controller turned up to max) then a HM7000 sound decoder will produce sound provide there is enough current. 1A is marginal.

Could an expert confirm or contradict the above please?

At what current is the sound not marginal?

Thank you.

[Fishmanoz]

I have now attempted to correct this interpretation many times, it is wrong. The correct interpretation is:

• if you run your loco with a DC controller, in general you can get no or maybe a few sounds out of your loco whether it has a sound decoder fitted or not
• if you take exactly the setup above including an HM 7000 sound decoder in the loco, you can now download the App, use that to control the loco and you will get full sound capability from the loco

Do you now see the difference and where the misinterpretation comes from?

Then given you are using the App for control, you can now use any 15 volt DC supply or any physical DCC controller to power the system. It doesn’t have to be Hornby, any brand will do. It is only used to supply power, the App controls the decoders in the locos.

Whatever you are using to power the system, it will have limitations according to its current capability. If it is the DC controller in one of the TT or other sets, it will only handle one loco and maybe not even that. This is exactly as currently being experienced in DC sets. Adding in a decoder does not allow the controller to supply more current or the motor to need less.

[Deem]

I am no expert and I am very new to this hobby as well, but what I understand (please correct me if I am wrong) is, the whole point Hornby went down the road of Bluetooth is, so control of the Loco or functions or CV setting using bluetooth can be achieved using HM7000 while power source could be any of the below.

However power still needed to applied to track, from one of the below

1. Elite Controller providing just the power only to HM7000 equipped Loco,
2. Select Controller providing just the power only to HM7000 equipped Loco
3. 15V power source (minimum power source requirement) directly providing power to Track
4. Or other controller which can provide 15V to track will work as well.

According to Hornby video one can use all there Loco's which are not equipped with Bluetooth enabled Hornby Decoder on same track along with Loco which will be fitted or installed with NEW BLUETOOTH Decoders.

[null_null29]

I have now attempted to correct this interpretation many times, it is wrong. The correct interpretation is:

• if you run your loco with a DC controller, in general you can get no or maybe a few sounds out of your loco whether it has a sound decoder fitted or not
• if you take exactly the setup above including an HM 7000 sound decoder in the loco, you can now download the App, use that to control the loco and you will get full sound capability from the loco

Do you now see the difference and where the misinterpretation comes from?

Then given you are using the App for control, you can now use any 15 volt DC supply or any physical DCC controller to power the system. It doesn’t have to be Hornby, any brand will do. It is only used to supply power, the App controls the decoders in the locos.

Whatever you are using to power the system, it will have limitations according to its current capability. If it is the DC controller in one of the TT or other sets, it will only handle one loco and maybe not even that. This is exactly as currently being experienced in DC sets. Adding in a decoder does not allow the controller to supply more current or the motor to need less.

 

 

OK, so just to be absolutly clear what is stated in the video below at 10:35 is wrong? Yes or No answer please.

 

 

 

 

[SteveM6]

I believe he may have got confused.

As I understand it, the decoder needs a minimum of 12v dc to boot up to allow it to have sounds and functions 'flashed' to its memory.

Once that is done the HM7000 app acts as an ordinary DCC controller and tells the decoder what to do - including sounds. Remember all functions and the sound file are stored in the decoder memory which should just need a command and sufficient power to work.

However, if you are using a 12v supply as found in train sets, it may not have enough power to allow all functions to operate. I think that is why Hornby sell a 15v supply, adapter cable and track section to ensure enough power for all functions.

I suspect he was trying to be cautious about claiming full sound functionality with a very basic power supply.

[96RAF]

@deem

1 and 2 provide power to the track not direct to that loco.

@rest and nullnull

Both right and wrong...

It has been found when using a cheap train-set controller that you have to whack the throttle up to the 12v max to provide enough oomph (1/2 amp or so) on track to power a loco or two, but the main problem is the PWM frequency of these controllers is detrimental to the sound output and may spoil the effect, hence why he recommended it for non-sound decoders only and which is why the preferred DC powering method is to wire direct from the 15v PSU to the track as seen in the video, else get your track power from a DCC controller again at approx 15v.

The app sends commands over the air (OTA) and only uses the track to keep the decoder booted up. You could actually wire a battery into the loco and it would work on floor tiles. This is proven when a power bank is fitted. You can lift the loco off track onto the bench and it will continue to run with sound and lights and still accept further OTA commands for several seconds.

A DCC controller can work legacy decoders alongside the app providing the track is DCC powered only. If a dongle is fitted these legacy decoders can be controlled from the app.

I wish dear Chrissaf was still here because I am sure he would have drawn up an excellent flow chart of what does what and what doesn’t.

[dBerriff]

Regarding the rubbish and misinformation being spouted elsewhere on t’internet, I am glad I am no longer in business.

I judge this to be a very impressive development and I will definitely be buying in. Hogwarts Castle (Hall class) will finally get sound to impress my grandchildren.

[Deem]

Thanks Rob for clearing my mistakes or partial incorrect explanation. I think I am going to leave this to experts (like yourself or if Chrissaf was with us or others I am not aware of, being new to hobby) to comment on, or explain. I would hopefully will be able to comment on as and when I will receive the pre order items.

Regards

[Brew Man]

I wish dear Chrissaf was still here because I am sure he would have drawn up an excellent flow chart of what does what and what doesn’t.

 

 

Yes he was excellent at those. Much missed. I only wish hadn't persistently mis-used the word 'infer'. grin

[Deem]

[96RAF]

This is as good a place as any to post this:

Further reliability testing has shown that the use of PWM (particularly low frequency) analogue controllers to power an HM7K track can affect reliable operation of both sound and to a lesser extent non-sound 7000 series decoders, therefore it is advised that if you want to power your HM7K system other than by DCC, that you wire the PSU direct to the track using the adapter cable and put the controller in the drawer. This puts a clean voltage to the track at full PSU amperage and the eliminates the troublesome amperage limited middle man.

In practical terms it rules out using Hornby HM2000, R7229 and R8250 controller variable outputs to power an HM7K system.

The problem was originally seen during HM6K system testing as the PWM frequency was adjusted and DCC-fitted locos started misbehaving. HM6000 module outputs could still be used in theory providing the frequency was kept cranked up, but its not ideal and direct power is recommended.

[TheTen2Fiver]

The HM7000 is a very interesting development and in my case timely one. As someone returning to the hobby after many many years can the experts advise me on what I would need in order to use the HM7000 system on my new soon to be layout.

Background: I have been planning a new twin track DC layout (as current DCC would make the cost too high) and I have been collecting bargain buys over the last year which include 9 brand new locos to add to my 5 old second hand ones from back in the 80's. I am about to buy quite a lot of new track, as the old steel track is only suitable for sidings at best. I also had planned to buy a new Gaugemaster DS twin controller with simulation.

My questions therefore are:

1. Can I now switch to using this HM7000 system if I fit all the new locos with Bluetooth decoders can I avoid having to buy a new GM DS controller?
2. Can I then use live frog points and ditch all the planned section relays
3. What items would I need to buy of the HM7000 range to make it work?

[Fishmanoz]

Answers:

• yes
• yes
• For any DCC Ready (fitted with a socket), buy the sound or non-sound decoder of your choice that matches the socket in the loco by number of pins.
• For non-DCC Ready, you will need to fit a socket, 8-pin will do, then buy an 8-pin decoder. If you are unable/unwilling to fit a socket, you are best not using it
• then all you need beyond the decoders is a 15v 4Amp DC power supply, more than you can jump over available online.
• If you are intending a power bus and droppers to your track, then wire the supply directly into it.
• If you are going to use just a power track, you will need the converter cable which is part of the system and make sure your power supply is compatible with it (it has the correct connector for the cable)
• and download the App of course

[rpjallan]

Answers:

• For non-DCC Ready, you will need to fit a socket, 8-pin will do, then buy an 8-pin decoder. If you are unable/unwilling to fit a socket, you are best not using it

 

 

I think this is very poor advice & I see it all the time on here. What is harder about direct wiring a decoder into a loco than wiring in an 8-pin socket?

 

 

Just my thoughts...

[Fishmanoz]

I agree fitting a socket may be marginally harder than direct wiring a decoder. Notwithstanding, I believe you will find the general consensus on this forum is that fitting a socket is better practice.

Then there are 2 disadvantages of direct wiring in the longer term:

• wanting/needing to replace the decoder, and
• warranty claims on your decoder with the plug chopped off