Loco’s run opposite direction depending which controller been used

[Deem]

Hello

i don’t know if either Bachmann Dynamis or Hornby Elite are faulty or they just run the loco differently.

I was using Dynamis and most of the time loco with hornby decoders either tts or non tts would run apposite direction instead of intending direction on controller. So while I only had Dynamis, I changed most loco’s CV 29 and Value 7.

But once I received the Elite, everything was running opposite, to intended direction as per controller. So I change setting using configure so all or most of my loco’s can run as per intended direction by controller.

Today I took out the Dynamis again (because my son borrowed Elite to test dcc on his new track) now all my loco’s are running wrong direction. I have tried 3 locos and I had to change CV 29 value 6 to make them run as intended by the controller.

Any advice or explanation would be much appreciated.

Dynamis, Digikeijis, Roco 21 would run loco, opposite, compare to Hornby Elite. I had use all these first hand so I know for sure.

[Fishmanoz]

Hi Deem, suggest you reset the Elite and see what happens then.

[96RAF]

I doubt either controller is faulty.

When you set the loco direction using the Elite menus you are actually changing CV29 in the decoder, so this messes up the Dynamis directionality.

Which controller is actually correct using the UK convention explained in the Elite manual that trains enter station from right to left so the left button is fwd and the right button reverse.

Having determined the correct one then change the other to match - see each manual.

[ntpntpntp]

With DCC you need to stop thinking "left and right" and think "forward and reverse", remember a loco instructed to go forward on the controller will continue to go forward if you pick it up and turn it round 180 degrees on the track. This is different to the behaviour on DC.

[Deem]

Please if some one can confirm what this sign mean, Forward or Reverse?

Regards

[Fishmanoz]

Clearly not a distance athlete Deem, nor a baseballer.

[96RAF]

Fwd per UK convention but dependant upon how you have set the direction per the manual.

[P-Henny]

Deem,

Forward gets my vote too.

As 96RAF says. It is UK convention. As has been stated in a previous reply. In the UK, if you are standing on the platform of a two track line. Trains usually (but not always) arrive at the platform you are standing on from the right and travel forward to the left. Hence the left facing arrow on the Elite.

If further evidence is needed, look at Page 19 of the Elite manual. The image on this page shows the left facing arrow as being active on the Elite controller and the red direction arrows above the locos on the track showing the locos travelling forward.

I appreciate that the human brain would decipher the arrows to be facing right for forward and left for reverse, but consider this. Would you be asking this question if the two arrows appeared on the Elite faceplate in a vertical plane i.e the left hand arrow pointing up and the other right hand arrow pointing down.

If the Elite used 'Up n Down' arrows, then it could be construed that the arrows represented the 'Drivers Eye' view from the cab. Up Arrow for going forward and Down Arrow for going backwards. The direction the arrows face is somewhat immaterial and irrelevant.

You are not the first member to challenge the meaning of the arrows. This discussion has been held before on the forum in the long distant past. Left facing arrow was 'Forward' then as well.

[Brew Man]

I seem to recall Deem having a tussle with this before. Yes, Deem, the left arrow is forward. So as Rob has mentioned, get your locos moving in accordance with Left Arrow = forward and your other controllers should follow suit.

[ntpntpntp]

Except that as soon as you have the same loco running forward on the line furthest from you of a double track running to UK convention (left hand running) the loco will travel in the opposite direction (left to right) even though the direction arrow on the controller is pointing to the left. This is why the arrows on the controller shouldn't be assumed to be the direction that the train in front of you will actually travel.

On my NCE system I have Forward and Reverse with no arrow symbols. With DCC you drive according to the direction the loco is facing, not the direction you want to travel on the layout.

[Fishmanoz]

Well I never! This thread could be more confusing, but only just. It’s irrelevant how many sides the platform has for a start. Just stand on it and face the train that has arrived - at the platform in question, not some other platform. From what hand did it arrive, and to what hand is it leaving, through platforms only please?

And for the platforms I stand on, it’s the opposite of what you lot have just said, not to mention that the water goes down the plug hole the other way too, as do cyclones which don’t have plug holes (and any that do).

I wonder if my Elite knows this? And please note it has a UK plug on the end of its PSU (much cheaper from a UK box kicker at the time).

[LTSR_NSE]

Hornby couldn’t possibly win if an attempt was made to model my local UK station. It has 3 platforms & tracks, (although the majority of the line and stations are 2 track) the middle track is completely unused (evidenced by heavily rusted track and a beautiful variety of plants & flowers growing up it).

The 2 used platforms (which are both the same side of the tracks as each other) therefore have to operate in opposite directions from each other - Up line trains run Left to Right & Down line trains run Right to Left.

[96RAF]

OK for the final statement of clarity - UK convention for most stations is right to left but some stations run contra to the norm including those with single or multiple platforms.

Have I missed any variations - if so add them to the list and accept that the Elite left arrow is FWDS and the right arrow is REV unless you decide to change them.

Other directionality is available including those stations that see themselves as bi-directional and closed stations which are non directional.

[ColinB]

Well this subject wasn't in vain, I never realised all that. I must admit the way I have always checked it when I am adding DCC to a previously non DCC loco, is to compare the direction with one of my loco bought brand new from Hornby with a new DCC decoder.

Forward and reverse do seem to be a bit of an issue with DCC, I mean to me coming from an electronics comms background it should be just a change of a bit in a DCC signal, but on the redesigned Zimo decoders, I had issues with the loco only going in one direction with my Fleishmann controller. It worked perfectly with my Elite and the Digikeijs system I bought to replace the Fleishmann. When I mailed Zimo although they couldn't fix the issue, they did imply that there was a another command associated with forward and reverse. I took the easy option with the Fleishmann and upgraded to the Digikeijs, perhaps one day I will get the scope out and find out what the difference in signals is.

[Deem]

Please bear with me while I try to explain, it may not make any sense to you guys or you may understand clearly. Both controller are based on NMRA standard, Please correct me if I am wrong.

To makes my life easy and try to get to bottom of this matter, I have chosen 2 Loco. Reset them to factory setting using:

Hornby Class 20 TTS Decoder (in Lima Class 20) using CV 8 with Value 8.

LaisDcc 4 function decoder (in Hornby Class 08) using CV 30 with Value 4.

Setup 2 straight tracks - one powered with Hornby Elite, second powered with Bachmann Dynamis.

Please see attached video showing Bachmann Dynamis is running Loco correctly but Hornby Elite is running opposite direction. I also swapped the Loco's so ran Class 08 with Hornby Elite powered track, Loco ran opposite direction. Lima Class 20 on Bachmann Dynamis powered track ran correctly as per the controller direction.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HP7qZJ8jkNems5sA2ofMEHE-FzH4nVC5/view?usp=share_link

I also swapped the Loco's so ran Class 08 with Hornby Elite powered track, Loco ran opposite direction. Lima Class 20 on Bachmann Dynamis powered track ran correctly as per the controller direction. I have not uploaded this video though.

[LTSR_NSE]

@Deem to help you understand - spin both locos round 180° (so they are facing the opposite direction to your previous test). Now which controller is behaving correctly and which is reversed?

[P-Henny]

Deem,

You appear to have assumed that the Cab on the Class 20 is at the front of the loco. On a Class 20 it is convention for the Cab to be at the rear of the loco (same as the Class 08).

Thus when the right arrow on the Elite is active, the Class 20 loco is moving right to left in the Cab facing direction of travel i.e backwards in Reverse which is correct. When the left hand arrow on the Elite is active the Class 20 loco is travelling Forward nose first with Cab at the rear, which is correct.

As LT&SE says above, if you turn the Class 20 round 180° on the track. Then the left arrow on the Elite active will move the Class 20 from right to left nose Forward with the Cab at the rear on the right.

BR Class 20 (see third paragraph down below image on this page that describes the cab driving arrangement).

The Dynamis shot in the video is too blurred for me to see the arrow part of the screen clearly, but I would assume that Dynamis are taking the human brain 'logic' view of using right arrow for forward and left arrow for reverse.

If that is the case, neither controller is wrong. They are just each taking a different view with regard laying out the controller displays.

You just have to accept that on the Hornby Elite, left arrow is forward and right arrow is reverse, which is correct for the Hornby Elite view of the world as confirmed on Page 19 of the Elite manual. As I said in my earlier reply. If the left arrow on the Elite pointed upwards for forward instead of left and the right arrow pointed downward for reverse instead of right, you would not have been asking this question.

You will never be able to get the Dynamis and Elite arrows both facing the same way for forward (when controlling the same loco) through loco CV configuration. It is impossible as it will take either Dynamis or Elite to change the controller operating firmware and that is very unlikely to happen.

[ColinB]

I suppose at the end of the day, can you fix it? The answer has got to be no, each controller has been designed and used for many years in its present state, so just accept it and move on. Now if it was an analogue controller you just reverse the output wires in the unit (it is only about 12 volts so no chance of electrocuting yourself), but it is not. To change it you would need to modify the driver software, which is not going to happen. You will only ever use one DCC controller to control your layout so there isn't really an issue.

[ntpntpntp]

I agree 100% with @p-henny. The loco decoders are working correctly and both controllers are working correctly, they're just designed differently in terms of the display. If anything I would expect the right hand arrow to mean "forward" (the way the Dynamis seems to work), not the left arrow that the Elite uses.

In either case, do not expect the direction of the arrow on the console always to correspond to the direction the loco will run past you. It depends which way the loco is facing on the track. As is often said with DCC you "drive the loco" not "drive the track". Imagine yourself in the cab, not standing to the side. (Similar problem to flying radio control aircraft, you have to imagine yourself in the cockpit to think left/right/up/down, not how it looks from where you're standing on the ground.)

With diesels and electrics having cabs at both ends it can be difficult to tell which is the front. I think the convention is for number 1 end to be the front, but not always easy to tell which end that is from a distance (especially with my N gauge locos!) I rely on the front lights as an indicator of which way the loco is going to move off grinning

[Brew Man]

@Deem

Just for clarity, you say you reset both locos with a value of 8 to CV 8 for the Class 20 TTS decoder and a value of 4 to CV 30 for LaisDCC decoder. To reset a LaisDCC decoder it needs a value of 4 to CV 8, not CV 30. Unless CV 30 does it as well, but not as far as I know.

[Deem]

Thanks everyone for your input, really appreciate that, as for Brew Man comment, according to LaisDCC decoder manual, one can use either, CV8 and Value 4 or CV30 and Value 4.

[Deem]

I suppose at the end of the day, can you fix it? The answer has got to be no, each controller has been designed and used for many years in its present state, so just accept it and move on. Now if it was an analogue controller you just reverse the output wires in the unit (it is only about 12 volts so no chance of electrocuting yourself), but it is not. To change it you would need to modify the driver software, which is not going to happen. You will only ever use one DCC controller to control your layout so there isn't really an issue.

I had raised this previously as mentioned by Brew Man, who remember this conversation, I can live with that, just accept as it is, but when I have to change CV29 with Dynamis or Configure each time I use the Elite, for all of Loco's, that could be frustrating. But I may just have choose one system and don't replace with other to remain as per my set up, however me or anyone set it up. One can run Class 08 or 20 with driver cab in front and being forward to suits or feel the way one would like. But thanks P-Henry for the link and confirming the standard direction of class 20.

 

 

[ntpntpntp]

@Deem I think you're not helping yourself at all by going around changing CV29 direction bit all the time. Leave the loco decoders set as normal direction so that "forward" direction on the controller makes the loco run forward, and don't fiddle with them any further. Forget which way the arrow is actually pointing on the system display (other than remembering which one means "forward" on that system) , forget left and right in relation to where you're standing and which way the loco moves, and just run the locos forward or reverse.

Put a little sticky labels with "F" and "R" on the console under the arrows, if that helps?

[Brew Man]

Thanks everyone for your input, really appreciate that, as for Brew Man comment, according to LaisDCC decoder manual, one can use either, CV8 and Value 4 or CV30 and Value 4.

Fair enough. Sometimes it pays to read manuals. smile

 

 

[Deem]

@Deem I think you're not helping yourself at all by going around changing CV29 direction bit all the time. Leave the loco decoders set as normal direction so that "forward" direction on the controller makes the loco run forward, and don't fiddle with them any further. Forget which way the arrow is actually pointing on the system display (other than remembering which one means "forward" on that system) , forget left and right in relation to where you're standing and which way the loco moves, and just run the locos forward or reverse.

Put a little sticky labels with "F" and "R" on the console under the arrows, if that helps?

 

 

That's precisely I raised this question in this forum and try to get to bottom of this, however just have to use your suggestion or others ideas by other user as well. Stick to one controller.