Decoder ''failure'' query

[pee trust]

On Youtube, an ''influencer'' has put up that his decoder had 'burnt out'.

Having spent my working life as a diagnostic engineer, and waiting for the android app, I was naturally curious, and have reviewed his actions and comments closely, several times.

If my thoughts are duplicating others , then please accept my apologies.

My observations

1 None of the 00 locos tried were Hornby, thus rendering fit issues irrelevant.

2 The power supply was Gaugemaster, which is AC from the wall to the control box, certainly in my experience. It was fed to the track directly, eschewing a control box.

3 By admission, the instructions were not read. I have been aware of issues similar to these before in other areas of life, surely it should be corrected.

My questions are

1 The other make's RF interference circuits cause issues with other DCC decoders and often need to be removed, for suitable performance

2 Will the AC feed from the mis-matched wall power unit ultimately destroy the decoder?

3 If anyone can resolve the third observation, please let me know as the answer will be worth a fortune.

ps I am not a newbie, I have been repairing , building and servicng model railways since the early 1960s.

;)

[Fishmanoz]

Hi PT, welcome to the forums. If I can say for a start, the ‘influencer’ I rely on for matters HM | DCC can be found in the 5th topic down at the very top of this forum. Click on the link I have posted there, then the 3rd category in that link and then the Manual, not the Quick Start Guide. Or - RTFM.

On your questions:

• unlike conventional DCC, RF suppression circuitry does not affect Bluetooth operation of these decoders with either a DC or DCC supply because no DCC signals are going through the track or such as a DC power track. All signals to the decoders go OTA (over the air) by BLE
• the Manual is very clear on power supplies - pure DC at 15-20V or DCC, with overload/short circuit protection. I have no idea what is coming out of the Gaugemaster PSU or whether it might destroy the decoder but it is unlikely to operate it unless it is as I’ve said. Just what Gaugemaster kit (model) are we talking about?
• only possible chance on this one is if all layouts are run by aliens

Would you care to name your YouTuber? Many here will have opinions on him/her and have expressed them previously. Personally, I go back to my first para - I ignore them and RTFM.

[96RAF]

@peet

Your influencer is obviously click-baiter carpet-boy as we know him on here. He uses the ‘didn’t read the instructions’ as his excuse for bodging things, then does read them and apologises at the end. It is his modus operandi.

If you want true reviews by honest influencers then try Rob Dowse at Little Wicket or Jenny Kirk, both of who do read the instructions.

I trust your vast experience will be put to good use advising the forum.

[Rallymatt]

Rob there was another ‘YouTuber’ that had a an issue but also declared ‘no one would read a 130 page manual even if buying a house’

Perhaps people would have less problems in life in general if they started reading information carefully before declaring themselves ‘experts’

Unfortunately, once I know someone is ‘winging it’ they lose credibility in my eyes

[96RAF]

Rob there was another ‘YouTuber’ that had a an issue but also declared ‘no one would read a 130 page manual even if buying a house’

Perhaps people would have less problems in life in general if they started reading information carefully before declaring themselves ‘experts’

Unfortunately, once I know someone is ‘winging it’ they lose credibility in my eyes

 

 

That was likely Paul Briden, as he keeps quoting me. There are several others banging the drum on FB who cannot accept that the instructions have been changed.

One such geezer wants all decoders recalled until Hornby has sorted out these analogue controller problems. Maybe they should invent a black box that fits twixt these ancient hardware and the track to magically eliminate all decoder issues.

There is a credible reason for instruction manuals, obviously as door stops for many folk.

As you say once they fail the credibility test their opinions are toast.

EUVirail is another worthy you-tuber, who easily passes muster.

[dBerriff]

One trend I have observed is that everything is blamed on the HM decoder when it ain’t necessarily so. There are now many more variables in the system than for wired DCC, including iPads with out-of-date operating systems, probably borrowed from their mates.

The HM7000 decoders are, I suspect, no more susceptible to PWM damage than other reputable makes.

From the advice sheet of a recent Bachmann Class 24 with Zimo sound decoder - on DC running: “If you intend to use a feedback type controller or one with PWM please consult the controller manufacturer before using it with this model. Do not use with Electronic Track Cleaners”.

I suspect that there is no specific problem with HM7000 devices, just the marketing and Tri-Mode box-printing. With hindsight (!), if only HM had passed on the responsibility in the same way as Bachmann and Zimo prudently did.

[Postman On The Rails]

If you spending best part of £70 on something why would you not read the manual doesn’t make sense to me.

[Smallteasers]

Rob there was another ‘YouTuber’ that had a an issue but also declared ‘no one would read a 130 page manual even if buying a house’

Perhaps people would have less problems in life in general if they started reading information carefully before declaring themselves ‘experts’

Unfortunately, once I know someone is ‘winging it’ they lose credibility in my eyes

 

 

It’s a growing trend these days - I think young people in particular are so used to short bursts of info on social media that they don’t have the attention span 🤷🏻‍♂️

[ColinB]

The 130 page manual is more a user specification, so perhaps we should stop calling it a manual. Anybody involved with computers and electronics knows that nobody is going to read all 130 pages. I have been on enough technical writing courses to know that presenting that to the general public is not going to work. I also know that for most of the equipment I designed people very rarely read the spec, but there again sensible people write an abridged version for people to read. I learn very quickly that if you want an easy life you make the data easy to read, unless you want to be inundated with trivial requests. I wanted to know the maximum current rating which to me was one of the most important part of the specs, and there it was buried in a load of other data, if I remember page 70.

I buy loads of decoders I only read the parts that are important to me, similarly in my old job when presented with a 130 manual describing how a microprocessor works I generally would only scan the parts that were that important, so I don't expect anyone else to read one. Hornby should have done what they did with TTS, created a simple manual for the decoder and a separate manual for the Bluetooth app or put it as a "help" menu on the app. How many people fully read their mobile phone manual?

[96RAF]

@colin

Me ... and I read my car manual and the books for my washing machine, TV and every other bit of kit that comes with a book, simple or comprehensive. How else will I be able to know what it can do and how to do it.

[Rallymatt]

Perhaps if people read things more closely they wouldn’t download the wrong app and then blame everyone other than themselves for their own inadequacy. It’s not like it’s it wasn’t obvious if you were paying attention.

[Brew Man]

Perhaps if people read things more closely they wouldn’t download the wrong app and then blame everyone other than themselves for their own inadequacy. It’s not like it’s it wasn’t obvious if you were paying attention.

 

 

All that is true, but to be fair, it maybe shouldn't have been possible for the wrong App to connect to a decoder. Can't see a way off the top of my head how you could get BLE not to see it as a Bluetooth device, but I'm sure the App could be programmed to realise it was not related once it had paired.

[96RAF]

The HM6K app will be updated to filter out ‘wrong’ devices,

There is already a filter in place to give other smart home devices such as TVs, watches, light bulbs, headphones, etc a swerve.

Resource is at present obviously a tad busy with HM7K.

[Brew Man]

That's good to know, though hopefully there are fewer incidents of the HM6K App being downloaded in the first place since the initial flurry of wrongly directing people via the QR code.

[P-Henny]

@colin

Me ... and I read my car manual and the books for my washing machine, TV and every other bit of kit that comes with a book, simple or comprehensive. How else will I be able to know what it can do and how to do it.

 

 

Ditto... me too....and that includes reading the instructions for assembling 'flat pack' furniture.

I also download the PDF versions so I can take advantage of the Acrobat search feature.

My only gripe about manuals are the multi-language manuals that are 100+ pages for which <10 pages are in English.

[Brew Man]

My only gripe about manuals are the multi-language manuals that are 100+ pages for which <10 pages are in English.

 

 

Why is that a gripe? For me it's more what started looking like a long read turns out to be a blessed relief with only ten pages out of a hundred or so to get through.

[P-Henny]

OCD issue.

[Bill-354351]

The fit issues are relevant in that decoders must meet NMRA standards for fit and performance.

[96RAF]

The fit issues are relevant in that decoders must meet NMRA standards for fit and performance.

 

 

Correct but the box only talks to compliancy with NMRA for DCC operation. No mention of fit or form. Those dimensions shown in the user manual are there for comparison with the standard.

[SteveM6]

George’s Waller also gave a reasoned and reasonable explanation as to why the decoders are a bit larger than desired in the most recent Hornby video. It as a simple choice between delay or go with what was available parts wise following the impact of the pandemic.

Gen 2 decoders will be smaller, when the component supply is restored. In the meantime I can wait.

[Rallymatt]

This decoder size thing is a complete red herring because if you actually check the Spec of NEM 662 that applies to Next 18 decoders, it only specifies a size for non sound and sound versions, there is nothing for a version incorporating Bluetooth and sound technology.

The box and website do clearly say ‘compatible’ locomotives,

MOROP (keeper of the Next18 specifications) acknowledge that there is an acceptable increase in size from non sound to sound, so it logically follows that that would be the case when they catch up to Bluetooth decoders. The tech has to go somewhere!

The size of decoders was made publicly available a few days after the announcement and has been on the website and here for a few months now.

To achieve the size they did with Gen 1 and available components was quite an achievement and is obviously dictated by the at the time, planned TT:120 range.

As far as I can gather, NMRA do not specify a dimension for Next 18, so many of the faux arguments, are undermining themselves with the usual failure to read and comprehend issues that seem to blight the population these days 😳

[96RAF]

Next18/Next18S spec - note the difference twixt size of Next18 and Next18S boards. Logic as stated above is that Bluetooth variants may need to be bigger still.

https://www.nmra.org/sites/default/files/standards/sandrp/pdf/s-9.1.1.5_next18_next18-s_decoder_interface.pdf

[Rallymatt]

Thanks for finding the NMRA listing Rob, I couldn’t find it anywhere! Obviously same as NEM662 and the only two decoders listed at N18 & N18S and nothing for N18S Bluetooth.

[96RAF]

Thanks for finding the NMRA listing Rob, I couldn’t find it anywhere! Obviously same as NEM662 and the only two decoders listed at N18 & N18S and nothing for N18S Bluetooth.

 

 

Until someone establishes a ‘standard’ for the underlying model railway Bluetooth application it is not possible to specify the supporting devices.

[Rallymatt]

It’s does make you wonder how the Bluetooth decoder can fail to meet a standard that hasn’t even been set yet!

I have had a bit of a ‘debate’ on YouTube in response to Jenny Kirk’s latest feature.

Looking deeper into N18, it was aimed at N and TT scale locos and quite a few of these (not just Hornby) are able to accept the BT N18S decoder. In the UK, a few manufacturers have used N18 to try and squeeze a decoder into probably a less than ideal space. In N and TT manufacturers seem to have looked ahead. On my Piko TT130 I have a PluX16 to N18 adapter plate in there as well, increasing the stack height by at least 50%

Have some UK manufacturers just been lazy and not fully thought out their designs or are the others just more pro active?