Drax Biomass wagons

[David-362339]

Morning all, I have tried to search for this problem and found no replies, so hoping someone can offer some advice. My brother recently brought some of the latest Hornby Drax wagons R60176 and R60177 to run on his already established model railway. These wagons are nothing but trouble with problems de-railing on corners and over points. We know that the track is reasonably ok as he runs Bachmann Freightliner wagons (Very similar length) without any problems. He has Peco track and points. I read a lot about checking the back to back distance on the forum, and have tried to set this to 14.5mm as per recommended distance, but it hasn't helped. the wheels on the Hornby wagon measure very close to the wheels on the Bachmann. The only difference is the measurement over the top of the wheel flange - could this help?

Looking forward to some help and advice as this is driving us nuts.

[atom3624]

I used to think the B2B should be 14.5, but most seem to accept 14.3-14.4mm - might possibly be the difference?

I notice the bogies are quite inset as well - is it the coupling articulation not as smooth as it could be?

Al.

[David-362339]

Hello Al,

thanks for the reply, on further investigation there are a lot of things that we are not happy with on these wagons.

Regarding the wheels, we found that the quality is very poor compared to the Bachmann wheels and seem a very odd size. The ends of the spindles are very rough, the flange length is very short which does not help the running over the points. They do not measure the same as the Hornby spare wheels and seem to be a special for that wagon.

Based on this the B2B does not seem to have an effect and are now looking at the width over the flange, if that makes sense.

The couplings are not fantastic, but don't think that's the main reason for the de-railment.

Regards

David

[atom3624]

Thanks Dave.

Flange thickness makes perfect sense, and I can understand what you mean about depth.

If too shallow, the slightest of deflections and they're off.

Good luck.

Perhaps swapping the wheel sets for a different supplier's will make a difference?

Al.

[Richard-371194]

Hi...I have just started with model Trains again and saw the Drax wagons in a magazine. As I have worked at Drax and loved the look of them it seemed to make perfect sense to invest in a rake of 8 and get going. Of course I can only get pre-owned now and bought a few off ebay, which to be fair look pristine, boxes do not look opened. I have three loco's all pre-owned, about 20 MGR wagons all pre-owned, and 9 Bachman HTA double bogey wagons (look almost identical to to the Drax ones other than colour scheme). Everything runs absolutely fine on the track I have built except the Drax wagons! The quality between the Bachman HTA's and the Hornby Drax wagons is huge. I can run a rake of 8 Bachman's easily...no bother. Just about get 2 running consistently of the Hornby ones.

The wheels seem loose in the bogies, are a small size and although I dont have a method of measurement, the flanges look really skinny compared to the Bachman's. I also feel there seems t be a lot of play between the wheels and the track as if the wheel axles should be longer?. The couplings seem to hang low on a couple of them and were catching on the points and I thought by tweaking them that had solved it after a couple of passes over a troublesome point...but no, came off again!. I was wondering if anybody had any solutions that worked. I think bigger and better wheels would help but I cant see how they would fit without taking a knife to the detailing on the bogey?

Really disappointed because they ain't cheap, even second hand!

[What About The Bee]

Hello Richard

Firstly, I do not have your Drax Biomass Wagons. I was hopeful that someone who did would be along to help you, but alas, that did not happen.

From what you wrote, I gather that the coupling catches on the point work AND the wheels seem dodgy.

Wheel issues will be resolved by careful measurements. It is far more than just setting the back to back measurement to X. It is the entire system of rail gauge, point work including check rails, wheel dimensions, etc, that make the system work. Not just one measurement.

Now you did mention that you do not have any measurement tools. You are going to need a tool, may I suggest a dial caliper. With that in hand, you may measure per this advice

https://85a.uk/00-sf/setting_00_wheels.php

You will note that there is a different back to back dimension as a function of wheel width. The drum or tread width is critical on point work, which is why the back to back changes.

And speaking of pointwork, your points should conform to

https://doubleogauge.com/intermediate-track/ Note that stating such and so works merely means that the system for that combination functions, but is no guarantee of being correct for other combinations.

As to the coupling. If it catches, then simply trim or file a bit off of the offending part. I will assume tension locks. The tongue stinking down is used mainly for uncoupling. It will continue to function with a slightly shorter tongue.

Bee

[Richard-371194]

ok Thanks for your response Bee. Appreciate that.

I already had a go at shortening/adjusting the "tongue" on the coupling before I went on the Forum, but I will spend a bit more time on that and see if I can do anything more. Cant help but feel I am compromising the value of these wagons by doing this however.

I'll invest in a caliper and check the wheel B2Bs, but my worry is that there are tiny brake mouldings on the bogey that are already very close to the wheel rim and I cant see there is any space for widening the B2B, which I feel is what is needed...but I might be wrong.

I think I will contact Hornby as I really feel I/we shouldn't be going through all this pain. These are expensive/high quality wagons and I think they should be ok to run out of the box like all the other items I have bought. The track is brand new Hornby standard, the points are brand new Hornby standard, everything else runs fine Hornby or Non-Hornby. Great care has been taken setting the track up so that it is level, joints are tight and so on but these wagons just wont run.

[What About The Bee]

Hello Richard

If your track work is all new, than you can readily assume compliance to the standard. Thank you for clarifying.

The new bit of information is a gem however. You mentioned tiny brake bits near the wheels and how these may interfere with the wheels when the back to back is set properly.

If the wheels are catching on the brakes due to normal tolerances then the wheels can bind and climb rails. Tiny plastic bits are also subject to deformation as they cool.

Plastic can be urged back into design position by the gentle application of heat. You do not need to melt the wagon into a puddle of plastic, but a little heat briefly applied to a tiny member will soften it, permitting it to be re-set into a new position.

Set the back to back first, then examine the play in the axles vs interference of wheels with the brakes.

Bee

[threelink]

Worth mentioning that the heated plastic part should be held in position until it has cooled otherwise it will relax back to its distorted shape

Hot water is the safest heating medium. Good luck in getting the problem sorted.

[ellocoloco]

Hi Richard,

I don't have the wagons but reading through your two posts above I have a couple of thoughts.

You mention the wagons are preowned and when you compare the flanges on the wheels to your similar Bachmann wagon they seem skinny. The thickness shouldn't be a problem but if they have less depth then I would suggest they have possibly been replaced by a previous owner with finer scale wheels such as RP25 standard. This might also explain why the axles appear too short. Have you tried the Bachmann HTA wheels in the Draxx wagons?

My other thought is that I suspect these wagons have NEM362 kinematic coupling mounts - that is they extend on corners to allow clearance. These are great but were never designed with standard British tension lock couplers in mind. Something like Hornby's R8220 would work better, provide closer coupling and not catch on any pointwork.

Best of luck.

[Richard-371194]

Thanks for all your responses. I am still slowly working through all the suggestions. I have found a small dip in the track, which annoyingly I had been very careful to avoid but managed to create none the less, so I have been going round the track with steel rule and spirit level to make sure the track is as perfect as it can be. As I said, Everything else rode the track fine except the Drax Wagons.....but they are running better now that dip has been sorted. I have measured all the B2Bs now and they all look fine so I dont think that is the issue anymore and cut the tongues on the couplers down even further again this has helped snagging on some of the points....The only thing left is to have a look at these tiny mouldings and maybe swap out the Hornby Wheels for the Backmann ones. I'll have to do all that at the same time I think. Definitely getting there.....I'll keep you posted...It would be nice to hear of others who have had issues with these trucks.