another faulty motor

[Curly 52]

back again switched on my GBRF shunter this morning only for it to stutter on start up then stop i immediately switched off the power. on lifting the loco off the track it felt warm another burnt out motor. released my Easterner from a sideing on to the main track and this ran fine, tested power to track that was fine 1 to 12 volts am at a loss to know whats causeing this problem.

when a train is on a track there is continuity between the rails is that correct , also when you change direction the polarity on the rails changes is that correct,

thank you

[SMR248]

That is bad luck!

When the loco is on the track there will be some continuity but there should be some resistance, due to the windings on the motor though so if its zero ohms then something is wrong.

You are correct about the polarity.

It seems strange that you are burning out motors with hardly any warning.

At the risk of burning more out you could try running them without the bodies on and see if anything more obvious happens (eg smoke!). Possibly not a good idea...

I wonder if the wheels are binding due to poor quartering. The worm drive means that you can't turn the wheels without either removing the motor or turning the worm by hand. Probably best to send it back to Hornby rather than dismantle it and break it...

[96RAF]

I suspect the controller as it is highly unlikely that anyone would coincidentally have so many motor failures.

[Going Spare]

I am puzzled by the statement that the GBRF 08 failed on start up yet was warm to the touch. Could it be that the controller is not turning off fully, leaving a minimal track voltage causing the motor to heat up over a lengthy period (e.g. overnight), the other loco being protected by being in an isolated siding?

I, too, despite Gaugemaster's reputation, suspect a controller malfunction.

@Curly 52 - Looking at images of the 100M controller, the direction switch appears to have a central 'off' position even though it is not marked. Do you turn the switch to that position between running sessions?

[Rallymatt]

Have you had one loco that has not had a motor failure?

[david_watts1]

I'd definitely be getting in touch with Gaugemaster and get them to check the controller, from your description it sounds like some sort of power spike when you switch on the controller. Six or seven faulty motors is just silly, it's got to be the controller or track.

[Hobby11]

I suspect the controller as it is highly unlikely that anyone would coincidentally have so many motor failures.

 

 

It's a reasonable comment, but random motor failures could also be as a result of a short circuit, and I'm not so keen on the "controller issue" several of you are pushing, as from what he's said on the other thread it's happened when using either of the controllers he has, that too me is very unlikely (two different makes showing exactly the same issue?!!), as is the mains power surge as that would also affect other household appliances at the same time which haven't been reported. Sorry, but I'm still of the opinion the issue is with the way the layout is wired and/or a track fault (faulty point for example) giving a short circuit that's frying the motors.

May I make a suggestion to Curly52? Remove the inside circuit altogether (actually remove it!), just have the one power supply (by the station) and remove the others, then play trains for a while just using the outer circuit and sidings and see if you have any motor issues. If you still get motor burnouts with just an oval and sidings then it's a controller issue, if not it's wiring.

PS if this is still about the same issue, motor failures, why have we two threads? Best to combine them?

[96RAF]

@hobby - not possible to merge threads unfortunately, the forum software only allows cut and paste and that has to be done by each individual poster else all the posts become as if put up by the moderators.

[Rallymatt]

I am not convinced the ‘jumper wires’ connecting the inner and outer loops are correct.

I would do exactly what Hobby has said, remove inner loop and its wiring. If every loco that runs on a layout fries its motor that strongly indicates the issues are layout/power related.

My 2 failed motors/gears (I didn’t pull them apart to diagnose) were after 10 hours of running time and other locos have exceeded that running time.

[Hobby11]

@hobby - not possible to merge threads unfortunately, the forum software only allows cut and paste

 

 

Thanks, RAF, what a shame. Is it possible to lock one thread with a link to the other?

[Hobby11]

I am not convinced the ‘jumper wires’ connecting the inner and outer loops are correct

 

 

That's what I thought, though that's what is suggested on that link to the 00 trackmat! It's not the way I'd do it. Though I wouldn't use one controller on a double track oval either!

I've just finished laying the track on my double track oval and have insulated joiners on the two crossovers connecting the two ovals. Belt and braces, I know, but I'd rather be safe than sorry. Even then I have to ensure they are wired the same way so I can transfer a loco from one to the other by having the two controllers set at the same speed, but that's basic stuff which I learned 55 years ago when I was 10!

[SMR248]

Granted that the wiring is "unusual".

Surely it would be enough just to disconnect the wires to the inner circuit?

Perhaps it's doing something at the points connecting the two circuits?

I think that normally you'd put insulated joiners between separate feeds (ie between the two points).

If the polarity is reversed then surely this would cause a short on the track where the +ve and -ve come together (another reason for insulated joiners).

I can't see how a short on the track would kill the motor.

Clearly the thermal (I assume) cut-out on the controller is only there to protect the controller. I wouldn't think that the cut out would reset quickly but if it did this might cause the motor to keep starting and stopping resulting in overheating?

[ntpntpntp]

I wouldn't usually expect a track short to kill a motor. By definition the power is running through the short not the motor.

I would like to suggest remove all locos from the layout, power on but leave the controller speed turned all the way down. Check the voltage on the track in both DC and AC mode on the meter. Should be zero volts on both settings if the controller is functioning correctly and there's no AC power leaking in somewhere?

Do the the same measurements with the controller on full speed too and see what maximums are recorded?

[Hobby11]

I would like to suggest remove all locos from the layout, power on but leave the controller speed turned all the way down.

 

 

I did think about that, but I don't like the way the layout is wired so my suggestion is to go back to basics. A miswire can burn out an electric motor.

We know that he has used two controllers and its happened with both.

We also know that it's affected more than one loco, even when they've been fixed.

Hence I'm reluctant to accept its a controller or faulty loco issue.

The wiring, to me, seems odd and as it's an intermittent issue points towards it happening when the points are set in a certain way.

Lastly no-one else seems to have the same issues.

 

 

So I suggest back to basics, process of elimination, remove the inside oval altogether along with sidings and run it fir a while as a simple oval and two sidings. If nothing happens then it rules out controller or loco faults and points towards a wiring issue.

[Brew Man]

It's what would be expected to happen if the track was receiving AC. You would need a scope to see it, though a meter on its AC range would give a fair indication. I agree that a short on the track could not burn out the motor for the reason ntp x 3 gives.

[Fishmanoz]

Curly has made this a little complicated by starting a new thread as the background is now in the original thread. So, copying my post in the other thread just now:

polarity is the same on all parts of the track . both locos working fine this morning ..

I second Curly’s conclusion on track polarity.

Take another look at his power connecting clips. They connect to the same side of each loop and clearly connect inner loop track A to outer loop track A (and B to B). The fact that the single controller power feed comes from the other side of the track is completely irrelevant. Changing the crossover points from straight ahead to crossing will not cause a short.

Happy to be proven wrong on this but don’t think so?

[moawkwrd]

Take another look at his power connecting clips. They connect to the same side of each loop and clearly connect inner loop track A to outer loop track A (and B to B). The fact that the single controller power feed comes from the other side of the track is completely irrelevant. Changing the crossover points from straight ahead to crossing will not cause a short.

Happy to be proven wrong on this but don’t think so?

 

 

I think the point about the power clips picked up on in the other thread from the photos was because the wire colours appeared to be opposite on each of them. Since Hornby don’t make TT track link wire packs this must be 2x TT8027s connected together somehow. However we really need more detail on the wiring to be certain whether it could cause issues.

 

 

If they are wired incorrectly it can’t be helping that’s for sure!

[Fishmanoz]

but I don't like the way the layout is wired so my suggestion is to go back to basics. A miswire can burn out an electric motor.

 

 

Again, I don’t believe there is any “miswiring”.

And I fail to see how any particular wiring arrangement from a single controller can burn out a motor. Either the polarity is the same on each loop as Curly suggests (he has been doing voltage checks so would notice reversed polarity I think) and the locos will operate incl crossing from one loop to the other or …. The polarity is reversed, in which case there would be a dead short on the controller when the points are set to crossing. That will shut down the controller without damaging motors.

Also given it has occurred with different controllers connected individually to the track, it would seem to rule out faulty overload protection on one of them. Surely can’t be this on both.

Finally, it’s intermittent in the last scenario. Easterner worked ok but followed by 08 burning out.

Remains a mystery for me, unexplained by previous discussion.

[Fishmanoz]

I think the point about the power clips picked up on in the other thread from the photos was because the wire colours appeared to be opposite on each of them. Since Hornby don’t make TT track link wire packs this must be 2x TT8027s connected together somehow. However we really need more detail on the wiring to be certain whether it could cause issues.

 

 

Have taken another look at the photo and I don’t believe this is correct. What I see is connecting clips with twin core fitted wiring at manufacture, one core of which is black with a white stripe and the other all black. Curly has connected the two together.

Now I’ll accept there are two possible cross-polarity scenarios:

• Curly has connected white stripe on one to all black on the other. If you could check that please Curly, or
• the factory has wired them differently. Possible but unlikely from a single batch.

But again, Curly has measured polarity the same and a dead short from cross-polarity will shut down the controller, not burn out motors.

[Curly 52]

GS mains power is disconected every night and plugged back in next morning , also always use the off switch when not running any loco,s many thanks

[Curly 52]

have removed train from track, set controller to forward and zero tester says zero, set controller to max tester reads 12volts set to reverse tester shows same results only in the negative . cannot test AC as tester differentiates between AC and DC automatically , many thanks

[Rallymatt]

just going to throw this out there.

Without knowing for 100%, there has been some speculation that the motors do not feature traditional carbon brushes but a wire wiper. If motor is being supplied with 2 opposing polarity feeds simultaneously before the controller has time to cut out, could that be sufficient to literally burn the wiper ‘brushes’ off / damage the windings on the armature?

Normally the points linking the two loops would isolate in standard trim but there have also been a few instances of faulty points.

I am reluctant to accept all these motor failures are due to duff locos. I thought I had been hard done by with 2 motor deaths 10 hours apart and a dead 08 out of the box (which could have been anything)

Curly, what part of country are you in? Just in case someone locally could have a look and help you get this resolved 😁

[Curly 52]

can only have layout out for a few more days then have to pack layout away takes up half off our back room , awaiting other shunter to come back from hornby , will disconect inner track and just run outer track may have to try this next time layout is up, could now be after xmas, will keep you informed . thanks to everyone for your help

[John-L]

It really seems to be pointing to a problem with the way this layout is wired, or an issue with the controller being used. It’s really the only answer that makes sense of this multiple failure of motors. Four different models all burnt out on the same layout? The odds of it being a manufacturing issue seem astronomical.

[Fishmanoz]

Curly, can you confirm for us please - does your multimeter show the same polarity DC on the inner and outer loops? Make sure that when you do the measurements, if you have red and black probes that you connect the red probe to the inner track of each loop and the black to the outer of each loop (or vice versa, but the same on each loop).

Then for belt and braces, confirm your power clips have been wired together with black wire to black wire and white stripe wire to white stripe wire. Assuming I’ve interpreted your photo correctly.

Or double belt-braces, disconnect the second loop as you suggest, eliminating all possibility of a polarity issue.

But from your perspective, the fault symptom you have is a dead loco, so far better to find the cause before risking another.