Curly 52 Posted November 21, 2023 Author Share Posted November 21, 2023 fishmanoz yes polarity is the same on inner and outer tracks also power clips are wired black to black and white to white . have now disconected inner and outer tracks electrically just running outside track. easterner still running fine today no problems, second shunter coming back from hornby repairs tomorrow will see how that runs. other shunter ran fine for six days when that come back but then seized up ,still to contact hornby about that, hopefully they will repair it again for me. GM100m controller is only one month old , this session with the trains is the first time using it and still one shunter has broken down. many thanks for everbodys help , have to put set away at the weekend probably till after xmas will let you no what happens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMR248 Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 Is it "seized" or is the motor burnt out? (perhaps it's not obvious?).If Hornby have failed to find the problem and only treated the symptom (eg melted component) then the odds aren't "astronomical". That said, if it ran fine for 6 days but then "seized up" then that is rather strange unless, for example, a screw has come loose.Or it's some sort of electrical magic which you've just discovered (Nobel prize in the post?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John-L Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 If Hornby have failed to find the problem and only treated the symptom (eg melted component) then the odds aren't "astronomical". OP has so far lost four different locomotives to burnt out motors. I’d say that astronomical odds for it being a manufacturing issue. Seems pretty clear that there is something at fault in the layout wiring or the controller. We just don’t know what that fault is yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 From Curly’s last, I believe the layout wiring is cleared. As was concluded on the other thread anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMR248 Posted November 22, 2023 Share Posted November 22, 2023 I wonder just how many 08s are being returned to Hornby for repair?If there was a manufacturing fault you'd hope that they knew what to look for?On the other hand, if Curly was the only one with this problem they would probably have told him "enough is enough"?I have an 08 in the box with 5 minute's run time on it so I'm hoping that it's Curly's mistake, not Hornby's...I've been there before with another manufacturer (not model railways). Their starting point was "it's just you, must be something you're doing wrong" when the reality was that it was poor design / manufacture, as subsequently became apparent. I'm not saying that this is the case here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobby11 Posted November 22, 2023 Share Posted November 22, 2023 I've been there before with another manufacturer (not model railways). Their starting point was "it's just you, must be something you're doing wrong" when the reality was that it was poor design / manufacture, as subsequently became apparent. I'm not saying that this is the case here... And there's the puzzle, no-one else seems to be having motor failures at the level Curly has, I believe one or two (out of a lot) have had armature issues, but that's about it. He could be unlucky and keep getting all the duff motors Hornby have or it could be something else, hence the current "one oval" check. We'll have to wait and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Fox 17 Posted November 22, 2023 Share Posted November 22, 2023 It is not just an 08 issue, he has said his A4 has also had 2 motors replaced.I have 4 and a friend about 13 and none have burnt out. My friend has sent a couple back due to a "grating" noise but were still runners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curly 52 Posted November 22, 2023 Author Share Posted November 22, 2023 just received my other BR shunter back from hornby ,have sent a complete new train this time probably because the casing had melted on the top of the old one, now running it in 20 min each way at a steady 9 volts. will continue on this thread now ,sorry for the confusion my mistake. also only have outer track powered up now. will let you know how it goes just got to send other shunter back hopefully Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallymatt Posted November 22, 2023 Share Posted November 22, 2023 Hope we can see the end of any issues, I’d hate for you to be put off what is a great hobby 😁 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curly 52 Posted November 22, 2023 Author Share Posted November 22, 2023 been running returned band new shunter this afternoon on and off sounded quite noisy and whining slightly, also running at max speed showing 13 to 14 volts on tester, with train off track and controller turned to max only showing 12 volts . therefore if a train motor is not running correctly will it draw more voltage , ie 13 or 14 volts. been running for about 2 to 3 hours on and off , will leave it off for a few hours then try it again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-Henny Posted November 22, 2023 Share Posted November 22, 2023 .....will it draw more voltage , ie 13 or 14 volts. Very unlikely.What you are probably observing is the effect of 'back EMF' generated by the rotating motor. A motor is in essence a large inductor, the laws of physics relating to inductive load motors do not follow the 'physics' laws of DC. The voltage you read on the meter's DC range will also be affected by the quality of the meter and its calibration when subjected to inductive loads. If you could see the voltage waveform on the track with an Oscilloscope generated by the 'back EMF' mixed with the controller output then it would look quite complicated and not like a constant flat DC waveform, the meter is probably doing its best to interpretate this waveform within its DC calibration and getting it wrong. The GM100 may also not be a pure DC controller and be outputting PWM, again the interaction between PWM and inductive loads may also be a factor in your meter observations.P.S. You should be able to use the 3 dot menu to delete one of your duplicate posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMR248 Posted November 22, 2023 Share Posted November 22, 2023 If it's a new loco then, hopefully, there's nothing wrong with it. Do Hornby recommend running it in for half an hour in both directions at about 9 volts (or something like that? Now would be a good time to read the instructions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallymatt Posted November 22, 2023 Share Posted November 22, 2023 SMR, yes running in is recommend as you say, 3/4 full power (9v) in each direction for around 30 mins. It’s detailed in the instructions. 👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curly 52 Posted November 22, 2023 Author Share Posted November 22, 2023 did run it in thats what i said above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMR248 Posted November 22, 2023 Share Posted November 22, 2023 Ok sorry I didn't notice that. At 75% of full power?I hope that this time it all works - must be very frustrating for you.On the plus side you've given us something to discuss whilst we wait (and wait) for the next exciting release. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skelton Junction Posted November 22, 2023 Share Posted November 22, 2023 So, am I to glean from these two similarly titled topics that none of the motors were faulty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMR248 Posted November 22, 2023 Share Posted November 22, 2023 No conclusion yet other than all motors were faulty at the end of their lives...Coming soon "Faulty Motor 3". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted November 22, 2023 Share Posted November 22, 2023 All we know is locos stopped working, some burning/heating/melting mentioned and Hornby reporting replacing motors. Except on the melting where new loco supplied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curly 52 Posted November 23, 2023 Author Share Posted November 23, 2023 new shunter sent back to hornby repairs this morning , running very noisy and in reverse a whining sound was heard did not sound well at all. also on full speed was pulling 14 volts but with no train on tracks voltage was 12 volts, packing set away tomorrow will take it up again in the new year ,many thanks to everyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntpntpntp Posted November 23, 2023 Share Posted November 23, 2023 If anything the voltage will drop (not increase) when a train is running, compared to measuring with no train. Voltage drop is more noticeable with a cheap controller if it's underpowered to source the current the loco wants to draw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinB Posted November 23, 2023 Share Posted November 23, 2023 Trouble is with modern multimeters you do not know what you are measuring, the thing could be reading peaks which would explain the higher voltage when it is running. In the old days an avo was best for this sort of thing or in my case a decent Fluke multimeter. As someone said, with a load the voltage will fall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curly 52 Posted November 23, 2023 Author Share Posted November 23, 2023 my tester is a fluke T5-600.the Easterner is still running fine pulling six assorted trucks behind it , still only running on the outer track , packing it away tomorrow, will keep you informed in the new year. should i use this thread or start a new one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Spare Posted November 23, 2023 Share Posted November 23, 2023 Could the greater unused space within the A4 body, more air flow, and perhaps even the larger chassis block, give the ability to dissipate a greater amount of excess heat from the motor than is possible within the class 08 body so motor failure is more likely with the latter even though all motors are equally affected?If the layout is about to be packed away now, I would contact Gaugemaster to seek their advice and possibly return the controller to them for checking under warranty while it is not being used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Fox 17 Posted November 23, 2023 Share Posted November 23, 2023 dissipate a greater amount of excess heat from the motor than is possible within the class 08 body so motor failure is more likely with the latter even though all motors are equally affected? I have 4 x 08's and they can pull 11 coaches or 20 wagons without getting hot.A friend has 14 x 08's pulling coaches and wagons and has not had one motor issue. He has had 3 x 08's and one A3 running on the track at once, dc analogue, and not had a motor get warm.I therefore cannot see how one person has 2 x 08's (and an A4) and all heat up and burn out the motors as well as melt a body for people to think the models are not well designed when it has not happened to others, certainly none I have read about.The space in all our models will just be the same for any air flow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daedalus Posted November 23, 2023 Share Posted November 23, 2023 I'm not an electrician but it may be worth buying a plug-in neon tester which will show if the mains socket is wired correctly.Wierd things can happen if earth bonding is not correct.In flats you can get problems if they share a satellite feed and some are supplied by different phases of the mains supply and the earth bonding is not done correctly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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