HM6010 with HM DCC - Bluetooth scan failed

[BritInVanCA]

I wasn’t exactly where to post this as I’m using an HM6010 Accessories Controller with the HM DCC app. I’ve got the unit hooked up to bus power and get the red light but when I scan for it on the HM DCC app it doesn’t find anything. I’ve got two HM6010 units with the same result. Am I missing something obvious?

[LTSR_NSE]

The first question is what type of power source does your bus use DC or DCC?

To operate the HM6010 using Bluetooth - it must be powered by DC.

(Similarly to operate it by DCC - it must be powered by DCC.)

It cannot be operated by both methods simultaneously as its operation is dictated by power source.

[BritInVanCA]

I’m not sure I understand your question but perhaps that’s part of my problem. My bus is I suppose DCC to use your terms as it is from my Hornby Select but it outputs 15v DC power from what I see on my multimeter.

From the instructions supplied by Hornby you can power the unit from the track if you’re using DCC because the voltage is constant.

As I said it has power as reflected by the red light.

Are you saying you cannot use track power and Bluetooth? That doesn’t sound right

[LTSR_NSE]

Ok DCC is not DC, they are different.

DC is fixed polarity, i.e. what a transformer or battery supplies. (One rail is +pos & the other is -neg)

DCC uses switching/alternating polarity. (Similar to AC but not exactly the same, hence DCC confuses standard multimeters, you’d need an oscilloscope to see the difference.)

To operate in Bluetooth mode the HM6010 must be powered by fixed polarity DC.

You can certainly power the HM6010 from the track & still use Bluetooth - provided you are powering the track itself with DC!

However if you are powering the track with a DCC controller - then you need to separately provide the HM6010 with DC.

As previously stated whichever power source is used dictates which mode the device operates in.

[LTSR_NSE]

An addition to above (posted separately to hopefully avoid confusion) & only for use if you are comfortable around DIY electronics:

Using a buck converter (or similar device) between the track/bus & the HM6010 would enable a fixed polarity DC supply to be produced from a DCC powered track.

A YouTuber explaining & demonstrating this:

[P-Henny]

My bus is I suppose DCC to use your terms as it is from my Hornby Select but it outputs 15v DC power from what I see on my multimeter.

 

 

The way your comment (quoted) is phrased seems to me to be contradictory. It seems to suggest that the Select is connected to the track but you are reading DC on its track output. This can't be true .... read below for why.

If you are connecting the 15 volt DC output of the Select P9100 power supply directly to the track (the Select unit itself being put away in its box) then the power on the track is DC and it will be 15 volt DC that your multimeter will read on the track.

If you are saying that the 15 volt DC P9100 is plugged into your Select and it is the output of the Select that is connected to the track, then it is DCC voltage that will read on the track with your meter.

Your meter should not be able to read a DCC voltage if it is put on the DC meter voltage range. The meter has to be put on its AC scale to read DCC.

As others have said, DCC is not an AC 'sinewave' so will not read an accurate voltage on the AC scale. The reading you get is just indicative of a DCC voltage being present and can read anything between 12 volts and 16 volts subject to the quality and calibration of the meter.

For info. Most meters are calibrated to read sinewave AC at a frequency of 50 Hz (cycles per second). DCC is a 'squarewave' at a variable frequency that is nominally 7,100 Hz (7.1KHz). In order to read DCC voltages more accurately with a multimeter you need a high quality (more expensive) meter that is documented in its specification to read 'True RMS' with a high sample rate. The higher the sample rate the more expensive the meter will be.

There are special 'RAMP' meters on the market that are designed from the ground up and marketed as a 'one task' function, and that 'one task' funtion is to accurately read DCC. Mod 96RAF has previously posted on this forum that he owns a 'RAMP' meter.

But in reality, most users only really need a basic meter to give an indicative presence of a DCC voltage on their meter AC scale.

[96RAF]

First let’s establish exactly how the 6010 is being powered.

Ignore the white circles - is it from the Track A-B or from the 15VDC Aux Output.

It is presumed you want to operate accessories from the module, if not what is the purpose you intend for it.

For the HM7K app to see the module it must be powered by DC as above, DC can be applied either from a PSU via the input jack or using the Track terminals. These are separate from the controller track DCC voltage and the two sources as stated must not be connected together. If the module has previously been linked to say the HM6K app then it must be delinked and deleted from there.

A scan should now pick it up but in addition to the red led you should have a flashing blue led. If not turn the module over and using the terminal aid tool press the reset button thru’ the marked hole until the blue led flashes. A scan should pick it up now.

Once found you will find you have to update the firmware to v1.10.0 in manage device screen.

[BritInVanCA]

yes I purchased the HM6010 to control points via the HM DCC app as shown in Peachy’s video. I was taking power for the unit from my bus which is connected t the “track” outputs on my Select. I guess you’re saying I can’t do that even though the quick start manual shows power from a DCC set up coming from the track. I’ll accept it if the answer is I just didn’t understand the requirements but I really don’t think they are very clear. I was prepared to buy an extra power supply but the manual implied it wasn’t necessary and I thought Pechy’s video confirmed it. My mistake

[BritInVanCA]

@P-Henny

 

 

Goodness there is so much I don’t understand. I guess a little knowledge certainly is a dangerous thing. I do get a reading on my multimeter in DC mode but it is a little unreliable which is explain by what you said. So in simple terms I think you are saying DCC is not DC and it’s not quite AC. It is something different. Thanks for your patience with a non-electronics modeller

[Peachy]

Hi BritlnVanCA hope you’ve got it sorted?

I’m sorry that I didn’t make any reference to the above issue powering these units with DCC track power.

Unfortunately it just wasn’t on my radar as I’m only using the HM7000 via Bluetooth so of course my track power is as described in the video purely DC.

[LTSR_NSE]

@BritInVanCA - the issue with the HM6010 is that it’s a much cheaper & more simplistic device than the HM7000 TXS (sound) decoders are. It functions in exactly the same way that the HM7000 (non sound) decoders are going to.

If you use the Select to power the track & HM6010, then you have to operate them with the Select too. Whereas if (like Peachy) you power the track & HM6010 with DC, then you operate them with Bluetooth.

[BritInVanCA]

@Peachy

understood

you never know how someone can misinterpret your guidance until it happens.

love this forum and your videos by the way. Generally such a non-judgmental forum which I know must be hard

[BritInVanCA]

@LT&SR_NSE

Understand now. As I said earlier thanks for your patience

I do think Hornby could make this clearer but perhaps that is why they haven’t pushed the HM6010 with HM7000. I was using a Select because I had one but also because early on it was one of the recommended solutions for HM7000 power when Hornby removed the guidance on general DC controllers.

[P-Henny]

@BritInVanCA wrote:

I think you are saying DCC is not DC and it’s not quite AC. It is something different.

 

 

DCC stands for Digital Command Control and DC stands for Direct Current. So there is no Direct Current in the DCC name.

Yes it is something different, the technical name for it is Bi-polar, which means that the voltage waveform polarity (polar) alternates both (Bi - meaning two) sides of the zero volt line.

[96RAF]

To be pedantic about the DCC phasing see this image grabbed from the internet (credit to the original poster).

At any instant either the left or right rail is 15 volts and the opposing rail is 0 volts. In the next instant this reverses and so on.

General opinion is that left rail is -15 and right rail is +15 with a notional 0 volts along the centreline - not so.

Note also why it is important to match phasing when using power districts or a reverse loop.

Regardless of that HM6010 is simply an R8247 v2.0 with a Bluetooth sub-module attached to provide comms with the app. Unfortunately there is no handy CV12 switch as provided for the loco decoders so this power source switching is achieved for this module and the future non-sound decoders as stated earlier by way of applied power type.

[BritInVanCA]

Thanks everyone. Big education week for me.

I guess I was always a little confused as I used to have Zero 1 which was AC and I thought DCC was DC from other conversations I’ve had (I do know what DCC stands for!). I guess the DCC loco modules do behave in a similar way to those from the Zero 1 system as they have to convert the current to regular DC. All very interesting.

[Daedalus]

Surely it is not DC, AC or Bi-polar as there is no 0 V reference. It is a square waveform of varying pulse width floating above ( or below ) ground.

Indeed if there was a 0 V reference you would lose the differential properties and the length of track it could be reliably used on would be greatly reduced.

[BritInVanCA]

Cross posted from the HM DC thread for completeness

Now I’m discovering the issue with PL10/11 point motors where the recommended power source is AC 16v and the HM6010 output is 14v DC. Unless your point motors are perfectly placed (position, tension, etc.) they don’t work reliably. I tested mine on installation with my DC controller that has a 17A AC accessory output and they worked fine. The extra power makes them more forgiving I guess.

Hey this hobby is certainly an education!

[96RAF]

Are you powering your HM | DCC track direct from a PSU or via a DCC controller. This will determine how you power your 6010.

[BritInVanCA]

@96RAF

My powering of the HM6010 is all sorted. I’m using a PSU with a 16v DC output so the Bluetooth works now. My issue now is the 14v DC output on ports 1 - 3 of the HM6010. It’s less than I was getting when using the AC accessories output from my DC controller and sometimes isn’t enough for my Peco motors to throw the point. I’m thinking I just have to adjust the seating of a few of them but we’ll see.

[96RAF]

You can connect some of the C ports together to make communal use of the 6010s weedy internal CDUs but be very aware only to do this with ports 1, 2, 3.

Port 4 must not be connected in common as it is a completely different circuit and cross connection with the other ports will damage your 6010.

Another method is to use the pulsed output from the 6010 ports to briefly pull in the coil of a relay, the main contacts of which carry the full surge output of a regular external CDU. This diagram shows the circuit used with an R8247 acc decoder but the principle is the same with any acc decoder. The method also allows the use of parallel manual switching for convenience.

[Fishmanoz]

Daedalus, concerning your assertion the DCC track power is not a bipolar square wave, I refer you to the NMRA standard at https://www.nmra.org/sites/default/files/standards/sandrp/pdf/s-9.1_electrical_standards_for_digital_command_control_2021.pdf

Here under the heading “2 Technique for encoding bits”, it says the “digital command control signal consists of a stream of transitions between two equal voltage levels of opposite polarity”.

Then, reading on further at the bottom of page 4 under heading 2.3, it says explicitly “bipolar”.

If this is not bipolar about a zero reference voltage, I’m not sure what is.

Edited after the item below posted.

[Daedalus]

Opposite polarity is not bi-polar.

If you read on it says;

"This is a differential signal with no ground. At the point where the signal line crosses the horizontal reference line, both rails will be at the same voltage."

As I posted.

[Fishmanoz]

See edits to mine above giving more complete reference confirming bipolar.

[Daedalus]

Courtesy of Advantec Automation;

"The term "bipolar" indicates that the signal swings above and below some reference point. In single-ended systems, the input is typically referenced to analog ground, so a bipolar signal refers to one that swings above and below ground. In differential systems, where the signal is not referenced to ground but where the positive input is referenced to the negative input, a bipolar signal is one in which the positive input swings both above and below the negative input, which is not necessarily analog ground."