Martinspans Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Hi, my name is Martin and I am new to the world off DCC. I am also a newcomer to this forum so please be gentle with me. Please could somebody tell why the Hornby Elite and Select Controllers do not have a simple on/off switch or button? It seems rather ridiculous to me that I either have to pull the cable out from the Unit or switch off at the mains when my system is not in use. Also, after I purchased the Elite controller last week I upgraded to Ver 1.41. Since the upgrade (and reading the latest user guide for that version of firmware) I cannot see any use for the On/Off button located at the top left of the controller, adjacent to the emergency stop. Maybe I have missed something?? If my belief is correct and this button no longer has a use, then could Hornby consider releasing a new version of firmware that will utilise this button as proper ON/OFF button for the device? To me (who happens to deal in ergonomics) this is the ideal location for an On/Off button. However to be safe you could include in the software a requirement to hold the button in for two or three seconds for the actual On/Off operation to occur. Many thanks for your time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flashbang Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Hi Personally, I can no point in switching the Elite or the Select Off via any On/Off button on the unit! The mains power supply would still be on and consuming electrical power even with the console turned off. So no gain really! In fact its actually safer to turn off and unplug the power unit at the mains socket. The On/Off button does have a function when its used with the R8245 Sapphire decoder for fuel simulation. See Elite manual 1.41 pages 49 & 50. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flashbang Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Sorry first line should read..... Personally, I can see no point in switching the Elite or the Select Off via any On/Off button on the unit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martinspans Posted February 2, 2013 Author Share Posted February 2, 2013 Flashbang, Many thanks for your reply. While I 100% agree with you that it is ultimately safer to disconnect any piece of electrical equipment from the mains, I cannot agree with you that you are still consuming power. Yes the mains power supply would still be on, but it would not be “working” as nothing is operating (even the LCD screen on the controller would be off). I physically disconnect mine from the back of the controller (main plug miles away!!) and I can assure there is not a hint of heat at the PSU; even though it is still connected to the mains. An on/off switch be exactly the same. Anyway, if I had to go around my house and physically turn everything off at the mains before I went to bed in the evening, by the time I had finished it would be time to get up and I would be switching them back on:) Apart from mobile phone chargers, I cannot think of any piece of electrical equipment in my house (that needs to be switched off when not in use) that does not have an ON/OFF switch! Thanks for the info on the On/Off fuel simulation. I missed that! I suppose that means I wont get my On/Off button through a firmware change:( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ace10086 Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Martinspans said: Flashbang, Many thanks for your reply. While I 100% agree with you that it is ultimately safer to disconnect any piece of electrical equipment from the mains, I cannot agree with you that you are still consuming power. Yes the mains power supply would still be on, but it would not be “working” as nothing is operating (even the LCD screen on the controller would be off). I physically disconnect mine from the back of the controller (main plug miles away!!) and I can assure there is not a hint of heat at the PSU; even though it is still connected to the mains. An on/off switch be exactly the same. Anyway, if I had to go around my house and physically turn everything off at the mains before I went to bed in the evening, by the time I had finished it would be time to get up and I would be switching them back on:) Apart from mobile phone chargers, I cannot think of any piece of electrical equipment in my house (that needs to be switched off when not in use) that does not have an ON/OFF switch! Thanks for the info on the On/Off fuel simulation. I missed that! I suppose that means I wont get my On/Off button through a firmware change:( Standby power, vampire power, vampire draw, phantom load or whatever else you want to call it is real. Virtually everything consumes power unless it has a physical power switch. The Hornby Elite 3A power unit consumes around 1.4W when disconnected from the Elite. Some mobile phone charges consume quite a bit too, especially the cheap knock off ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flashbang Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Martinspans said: Flashbang, Many thanks for your reply. While I 100% agree with you that it is ultimately safer to disconnect any piece of electrical equipment from the mains, I cannot agree with you that you are still consuming power. Yes the mains power supply would still be on, but it would not be “working” as nothing is operating (even the LCD screen on the controller would be off). I physically disconnect mine from the back of the controller (main plug miles away!!) and I can assure there is not a hint of heat at the PSU; even though it is still connected to the mains. An on/off switch be exactly the same. Anyway, if I had to go around my house and physically turn everything off at the mains before I went to bed in the evening, by the time I had finished it would be time to get up and I would be switching them back on:) Apart from mobile phone chargers, I cannot think of any piece of electrical equipment in my house (that needs to be switched off when not in use) that does not have an ON/OFF switch! Thanks for the info on the On/Off fuel simulation. I missed that! I suppose that means I wont get my On/Off button through a firmware change:( Hi Unfortunately you are so wrong! Both the Hornby Select and Elite use plug in transformers to drop the mains voltage to the required extra low volts needed by the Select or Elite. The Select has the plug built into the transformer casing while the Elite uses a 'brick' style transformer and separate mains lead/plug. All the while these transformers are plugged into a live socket (i.e. its switched on at the mains) they are converting 230 volts (UK) to the required output voltage - 15volts in this case. So they are live and they are consuming mains electrical power to do this, they do this all the time they are plugged in and switched on at the mains! Their output leads will have the 15 volts sitting on them all the time the unit is mains powered too, but unless the device connected to the ELV lead is actually On no current is flowing in the secondary side of the transformer except for a few milli or micro amps in losses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martinspans Posted February 2, 2013 Author Share Posted February 2, 2013 Thank you. I am aware of everything you have written above. 1.4 watts (in the big scheme of things) is nothing and it certainly does not constitute a hazard. I am simply asking why the controllers do not have an on/off switch…..like 95% of all electrical equipment. If nothing else I would like to have one for convenience. It saves me trying to find my cable when I disconnect it and it drops to the floor:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flashbang Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 To add.. The Select and Elite are exactly like a mobile phone charger power wise. The only way you can stop a mobile phone charger working is to turn it off at the mains. Turning off the phone will not turn off the charger. Your home devices that do have a mains On/Off switch on them will have the mains power taken directly into the device. Therefore when these are turned Off by the physical operation of a switch the device is then Off, but of course the flexible lead is still live but no power is flowing in it. But leaving a TV in standby while its not in use still means it has its transformer connected and working which is feeding the components needed to restore the TV to operation as soon as the remote control is operated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martinspans Posted February 2, 2013 Author Share Posted February 2, 2013 Ok, ok, I am sorry I asked. I don’t care that it saves me a bit of electric because I turn off at the wall and I don’t care that my mobile phone or TV uses a bit of electric because I do not switch off at the wall or I leave it in standby. What I do care about is the fact that I have to walk to another room or pull a cable out to switch something off. I would suggest that there is more chance of it being accidently left on (thus leaving your track and any lights on) without a switch. Hypothetically situation: you do not switch off at the mains because you want to play later. You get diverted and do something different….like go shopping!!! Result is your system is left on. With a good old fashioned DC transformer your rheostat was turned off leaving no power to your tracks. With DCC when it is on, everything is on. I personally think the reason is a poor design, manufactured that way to save money. For your information I work as an engineer for a major IT and communications company……so I have a reasonable idea of stuff. But thanks for your time and again sorry I asked. PS Wales is losing badly so I am not happy. But good luck to Ireland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ace10086 Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 I agree that is is designed this way to save money. The power connectors also aren't of a design that is expected to be plugged and unplugged continuously. I would imagine that your scenario isn't the norm however with your mains plug in another room to the controller so an on/off switch wasn't thought of as a high priority. Have you considered a power strip with a remote control which would solve your problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graskie Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Why not have a single or multiple gang socket with a long lead from your main power socket, with switch(s)? I can and do duck under my layout to turn off the mains supply but I suppose I perhaps don't need to switch off there. In fact, in addition to my Elite connection, I have other equipment plugged into my gang socket, which I can turn on or off individually, for my laptop running RailMaster, lamp(s), radio etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 It seems to me both sides in this argument are right, just choosing to interpret the facts differently. There is one thing for sure though - given these units have separate power supplies, there is no way that a switch on the unit is going to turn the whole thing off at the mains and so disconnect the primary side do the power supply, at least not unless there is some clever and expensive circuitry in both the unit and the supply that switches off the input side of the supply via control signals from the unit back to the supply. So for practical purposes an on/off switch on the unit will only do exactly the same as disconnecting the supply from the unit by unplugging it and the supply will still be connected to mains and drawing some power through its input circuitry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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