Badger99 Posted September 24, 2013 Share Posted September 24, 2013 Hi, just wondering if anyone has had experience adding a DCC decoder to a 1981 Schools class "Stowe" Loco with smoke generator. Also, where can you get the smoke oil as Hornby no longer lists it? cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted September 24, 2013 Share Posted September 24, 2013 A quick look at the Collector Guide on http://www.hornbyguide.com/service_sheet_details.asp?sheetid=107 tells me this is a tender drive loco with a Ringfield motor? Further, as there is only one wire powering it from the pickups to the right hand brush connector, the left hand brush connector must be connected to chassis. You should do a continuity test to confirm this. While wiring the decoder is simple in concept, just as magfan says above, the principle being orange and grey wires go to motor connections, red and black to track pickups (in this case one to the one pickup and the other to chassis, and you can solder directly rather than using a plug if you wish), you must first isolate the left hand brush connector from chassis to avoid frying the decoder. This is done by either replacing the metal screw with a plastic one, or drilling out its mounting hole and putting in a plastic sleeve. And I'm sure SoT will be along very soon to either confirm what I say, or tell me he thinks this post is somewhat muffled because I seem to be talking through my hat. But I think not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger99 Posted September 25, 2013 Author Share Posted September 25, 2013 Thanks guys, this is valuable info. Fishman, when you say that the LH Brush connector needs to be isolated from chassis (and either orange or grey is connected to the LH brush connector), even if you screw it down to the chassis with a plastic screw, isn't it still making contact with the chassis where the plastic screw is holding it down? Maybe an insulating washer AND a plastic screw? I thought this might be a challenge! Probably worth changing the brushes at the same time do you think (its thirty odd years old) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poliss Posted September 25, 2013 Share Posted September 25, 2013 It all depends on whether you have a Type 1 or a Type 2 Ringfield motor. See the section on Brian Lamberts website about converting them for decoder fitting. http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/DCC.htm#Decoder Installation. If it's a Type 2, then a suitable replacement screw is a Nylon 6.6 slot cheese head screw,M3x12mm. Smoke oil is still made by Seuthe and is widely available. Do not run the smoke unit without smoke oil as doing so will burn out the element. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger99 Posted September 25, 2013 Author Share Posted September 25, 2013 Its a type six motor. Thanks for the smoke oil info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger99 Posted September 25, 2013 Author Share Posted September 25, 2013 It's a Ringfield type six by the Hornby service sheet, but a type two by Lambert's classification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted September 25, 2013 Share Posted September 25, 2013 Sorry, yes, you need insulation under the connector strip, as per Brisn Lambert's description. And yes, replacing brushes and springs is a good idea. Not to mention a good clean then lubrication. Oorail77 has a YouTube video on how to do this. He has provided a link to it in a recent thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted September 25, 2013 Share Posted September 25, 2013 Apologies to you magfan, I didn't understand some of the implications of your original advice. If I can clarify: You are suggesting the decoder be mounted in the loco, not the tender with the motor, as there is no room in the tender. Consequently, you suggest a plug and socket for the wiring to make this easier, and only 3 wires are needed as the chassis side of the current feed from the track is common between loco and tender already. You suggest an 8249 won't handle the motor current, an 8245 Sapphire is needed. Must admit I thought the old Ringfields were ok with the 8249 but stand to be corrected. You suggest a modern smoke unit as you can't run the original from an accessory output of the decoder due to current again. Do I understand you correctly now? But one thing you have me stumped on is what you mean by a Pendolino decoder. Which decoder do you mean, there only being the 2 Hornby decoders I mentioned above? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gilbo2 Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 magfan said: yes I suggest the decoder is fitted in the loco three wires are needed, orange, grey, black ,as you correctly pointed out the motor will need isolating at the brush the 8249 will handle the motor current but I am unsure of the current needed to make the old smoke unit work ,..... The red decoder wire will also need connecting to the other "rail" supply? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 In this type of loco design, wheels on one sided are insulated from everything else by a plastic bush. Pickups contact these wheels and the black decoder wire is connected to the pickups. On the other side, the wheels are not insulated, so there is electrical contact from them to the axles, then to metal bearings which are mounted in metal chassis. So red decoder wire is connected to the chassis. All of these are connected to each other via the track. So if you mount the decoder in the loco, you can connect the red wire to chassis right there, you don't have to take it to the tender for connection. Only the other 3 wires need to go from loco to tender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger99 Posted October 2, 2013 Author Share Posted October 2, 2013 All very useful stuff guys. Do you think that the cap across the brushes should be snipped out when converting a type six ringfield to DCC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog RJ Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 Badger99 said: All very useful stuff guys. Do you think that the cap across the brushes should be snipped out when converting a type six ringfield to DCC? I never remove the capacitor and so far none of my locos suffer any problems, using a selection of Hornby, B***mann, Lenz, ESU and TCS decoders. If you do think it causes a problem it's easy to snip one leg of the cap to prove/disprove that the cap is causing the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger99 Posted October 2, 2013 Author Share Posted October 2, 2013 Thanks Rog, just thinking ahead of any issues before the loco arrives and I can get stuck into it. New brushes and springs await it on Fishmanoz's advice! I think I'll disconnect the smoke generator for now, even though the seller (barriesattic)kindly found a bottle of smoke oil and a pipette and chucked them in for free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pidder Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 I fitted a decoder to my Stowe some time ago, much as has been described. Pretty sure I just used a cheapie Hornby decoder. I removed the smoke unit and dumped it. Having read of possible heat damage, as described in Youchoos - fitting a smoke generator, I think I did the right thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger99 Posted October 3, 2013 Author Share Posted October 3, 2013 Magfan, could I ask you how you removed the tender body? I have a thread in general discussion on this, but I thought as you have direct experience I could come direct to the fount of wisdom! Badger99 said: I thought this might be a challenge! yes I found it one of the most challenging Hornby locos to convert space for the decoder is at a premium I fitted a decoder to 900 eton ,it will fit in the tender ,I used a pendilino decoder as I did not want the smoke ,and just disconnected it, my select controller was not keen on the original smoke unit, which is why I advised a loco fitted decoder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger99 Posted October 4, 2013 Author Share Posted October 4, 2013 Bingo! Magfan you are a gentleman and a scholar and have won today's prize of a six pack of Coopers Sparkling Ale. Pop in to collect it next time you are in Perth, WA. Rather than an instrument screwdriver, I used the end of a six inch steel ruler that is very thin and flexible. This spreads the load over a wider area and let's you pop the body off without damage. Thanks very much indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger99 Posted October 4, 2013 Author Share Posted October 4, 2013 Service sheet 133 gives wrong info on dismantling it, but this is for the general discussion thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger99 Posted October 5, 2013 Author Share Posted October 5, 2013 Just thinking this through a bit more, I'm not sure why you would need three wires going to the tender. You can get both pick up wires in the loco, one to the existing insulated pickup connection and the other to the loco chassis (by tapping a 2mm hole in the chassis and screwing down a small solder tag). Then the orange and grey wires run to the tender. The Ringfield motor in this tender has a plastic front face where the brushes are mounted. Using nylon M2X10 screws to replace the metal screws which currently hold the brush springs on (you don't need insulating washers as the motor face is plastic) you can then attach the orange and grey wires to the brushes, which will now both be insulated from chassis. Can you see any problems with doing it this way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Yes, you now only have insulated pickup input coming from the tender, not from the loco. So you have less wheels collecting power for you and it will be more prone to stalling on insulated frog points than if the loco was contributing. And you only need the nylon screw on the left brush, the right brush is already insulated from chassis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Oops, posted before I got my logic right. It is the loco providing the insulated pickups and not the tender unless you connect them. One of the reasons modern steam locos usually run well is that there are pickups in both loco and tender with electrical connection between them made where they are physically joined together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger99 Posted October 5, 2013 Author Share Posted October 5, 2013 Ok, so better to have a third wire connecting tender chassis to loco chassis pickup? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Definitely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Actually, thinking about it, better to have the fourth wire too. Even though it is all common, you still get more contact points to the track with the 4th wire. It should run from chassis to chassis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger99 Posted October 6, 2013 Author Share Posted October 6, 2013 I probably wasn't clear, my third wire was intended to connect the chassis of the loco to the chassis of the tender. There are no insulated pickups on the tender wheels only on the loco. Where would your fourth wire go to? The two main loco wheels are the only pickups from the track as original. The wheel to wheel centres are 41mm more than enough to bridge any insulfrog points I've got. Actually the third wire connecting both loco and tender chassis together would only provide extra contact points down the chassis side of the loco/tender assembly, not a lot of point in that? Connecting a multimeter to the track and insulated pick up on the loco. and then track and chassis on the loco shows no sign of loss of continuity across short points or express points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger99 Posted October 12, 2013 Author Share Posted October 12, 2013 Well, it eventually all worked out, (with only two wires from loco to tender) and the R380 Schools class now runs well on DCC. Thanks to all those who provided advice. Must admit I wouldn't be rushing to convert another tender driven loco to DCC though, especially one of this age. I certainly learnt a lot though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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