R8247 Vs R8216 - is there a problem in using both controllers on same system

[Ollie0033]

I have seen several threads on this subject but I am still not sure if there is a problem. From what I can gather the R8216 is an earlier version of the R8247 but....

1. What are the major differences between the two decoders if any?

2. Are different

 

programming methods required or even different pieces of hardware (an elite and select?)

3. Where does this leave RM with E-link - are there any issues here?

[poliss]

The R8216 requires certain procedures in order to programme it successfully using an ELITE.. see below..

 

The later R8247 does not require any special procedures in programming.. please note the R8247 was incorrectly labelled as an R8216 in production..

 

i.e. the aluminium product label on the underside of the unit is incorrect.. However the packaging and instructions are correct. There is a date code on the underside of the unit.. engraved into the underside you will find the numbers 50/07.. this identifies

 

the unit as R8247. Any earlier date code is a R8216.

 

Using an ELITE to programme the Point Decoder R8216.

 

Please note that the firmware version of the ELITE has no bearing on the following..

 

The following notes and procedure should

 

help with the process of programming the Hornby point decoder with the ELITE controller.. For those of you who have used a SELECT controller to set up you points and now are experiencing “no response” please refer to the note in red at the end regarding point

 

address numbering translation between the SELECT and ELITE controllers...

 

ELITE controller.. Point Decoder R8216 Programming Procedure..

 

1, When the Point Decoder successfully programmes it activates channel 1 of the Point Decoder. This behaviour

 

can be used as an indicator that programming has been successful. Connect a Hornby Point motor to the first channel output of the Point Decoder.

 

Ensure that you have the point motor correctly connected..

 

Red = +

 

Black = C

 

 

 

Green = - ***

 

*** it is possible that this wire may be Brown or White depending on when your point motor was manufactured.

 

2, Set the point motor armature is set centrally between the two coils. When the point motor activates it will throw

 

the armature towards one of the coils, there will be an audible click from the solenoid as this happens. This procedure is advised; as it will make it easier to tell when the point motor armature has been thrown… thus indicating successful programming.

 

 

 

3, Connect the Point Decoder to the programming track and carry out the programming procedure as directed in the ELITE manual page 39.. ensure that you use “Reg” mode.. For an explanation regarding address ranges available for use with Point Decoder R8216

 

please see explanations below.

 

4, It is likely that the point motor will fail to programme on first attempt… (this is normal) after the initial programme cycle has been executed the ELITE display will show the message.. “Address”.. Pressing the control

 

knob (knob 1 in the example in the manual) 3 times in succession will repeat the programming cycle… repeat this action until the point motor is activated as described above.

 

Explanations..

 

Address Ranges..

 

The Point Decoder has four

 

output ports that are set in a group of four consecutive addresses. The address range is 1-252.

 

If you programme the Point Decoder as any number in the range 1-4, e.g. 3, the 4 output ports of the Point Decoder will be allocated as addresses... 1,

 

2, 3, and 4.

 

If you programme the Point Decoder as any number in the range 5-8 e.g. 7, the 4 output ports of the Point Decoder will be allocated to addresses 5, 6, 7, and 8.

 

These batches of 4 addresses are often referred to as Groups. Therefore,

 

Group 1 will be addresses 1-4, Group 2 will be address range 5-8 and so on. Up to a total of 63 groups possible groups.

 

…….

 

Why won’t the Point Decoder programme on the first attempt when using my ELITE?

 

When I used a SELECT to programme

 

the Point Decoders, all worked fine. Now I have an ELITE and it won’t programme my Point Decoders.. what’s going on?

 

The Point Decoder R8216 was primarily designed to be used with the Hornby SELECT unit. The SELECT does not have a dedicated programme

 

output like the ELITE. This is a crucial difference when programming the Point Decoder R8216 with the ELITE. The SELECT output has a high current capability while the ELITE utilises a low current dedicated programme track output. In order to programme the

 

Point Decoder the onboard capacitors that make up the point motor control output need to be charged. When a non-charged Point Decoder is connected to the programming track these capacitors will effectively sap all the power until they are charged. Since power

 

is only applied to the programming track during the programming cycle, it may take several “goes” before the capacitors reach charge.. thus allowing successful programming.

 

…………………

 

Notes..

1, Precharging the Point Decoder before attempting

 

to programme can cut down the number of programme cycles needed to successfully programme the Point Decoder. To precharge the Point Decoder, simply connect it temporarily to the main track output of the ELITE for about 7-10 seconds, then disconnect and carry

 

out the programming procedure outlined above.

 

2, Also, if after precharging, you temporarily connect a 50ohm 5watt resistor between the + (positive) of output port 4 of the Point Decoder and either of the programme output connections on the ELITE

 

controller you will be able to programme the Point Decoder on the first attempt. The resistor maintains the charge on the internal Point Decoder capacitors as described above.

..

 

3, If you have programmed your point address range using a SELECT

 

starting at 60 to 63, you will find that when connecting to an ELITE controller the points will respond to 57-60. i.e. your first point in the group is 57 not 60. This is because, early SELECTs pre firmware 1.1, allowed 60 to be used as the first number within

 

the first point group. Version 1.1 SELECTs start the point numbering for the first point group as 61-64. This corresponds with the normal NMRA practice..

[poliss]

 

There are two different point decoders and depending on which you have there are different ways of programming. If you have the R8247 (this can be found on the bottom of the unit) please use this set of instructions:

 

1. Plug in the power

 

lead to the R8247 module and connect it directly to the ‘Prog’ slot on the Elite controller

2. Press the ‘Menu’ button

3. Cycle the dial until ‘Acc’ is displayed and confirm by pressing Control 1

4. Select ‘Direct’ and press Control 1

5.

 

Ensure ‘Address’ is displayed and confirm

6. ‘Write’ will appear and should be confirmed by pressing Control 1

7. Input the desired address, for example ’61’ and press the control dial to confirm

8. The red LED will then flash numerous times,

 

however, please ensure it flashes less than eight times

9. The R8247 has now been programmed, with the other 3 ports being programmed as the next three consecutive addresses (e.g. 62, 63 and 64).

 

If you are using the R8216; please check the date

 

code on the bottom of the unit as some were miss labeled in fact they are R8247. If the date code is below and not including 50/07 then it is R8216, otherwise it is the R8247). The instructions for the R8216 are:

 

Elite controller: Point Decoder R8216

 

Programming Procedure

1) Please connect the point motor to the first channel output of the Point Decoder. Please Note: when the Point Decoder starts the programme cycle it activates channel 1. This behaviour can be used as an indicator that programming

 

has commenced.

Ensure that you have the point motor correctly connected.

 

Red = +

Black = C

Green = - ***

 

*** It is possible that this wire may be Brown or White depending on when your point motor was manufactured.

 

 

 

Peco point motor wiring is different:

Red = +

Black = -

Green = C

 

2) Set the point motor armature so that it is set centrally between the two coils. When the point motor activates it will throw the armature towards one of the coils,

 

there will be an audible click from the solenoid as this happens. This procedure is advised; as it will make it easier to tell when the point motor armature has been thrown indicating successful programming.

 

You may use the surface mount low profile

 

point decode, but indication as described above is more difficult to see. E.g. there will be a faint click or, the bell crank will move; depending on the direction the point motor is thrown.

 

3) Connect the Point Decoder to the programming output of

 

the Elite. For programming purposes it is recommended that the Point Decoder is connected directly to the programme output of the Elite.

 

4) Carry out the programming procedure as directed in the Elite manual page 39. Ensure that you use “Reg” mode.

 

 

 

Please Note: It is likely that the point motor will fail to programme on first attempt (this is normal) after the initial programme cycle has been executed the Elite display will show the message “Address”. Pressing the control knob (knob 1 in the

 

example in the manual) 3 times in succession will repeat the programming cycle, repeat this action until the point motor is activated as described above.

 

Address Ranges

The Point Decoder has four output ports that are set in a group of four consecutive

 

addresses. The address range is 1-252. If you programme the Point Decoder as any number in the range 1-4, e.g. 3, the 4 output ports of the Point Decoder will be allocated as addresses 1, 2, 3, and 4.

 

If you programme the Point Decoder as any number

 

in the range 5-8 e.g. 7, the 4 output ports of the Point Decoder will be allocated to addresses 5, 6, 7, and 8. These batches of 4 addresses are often referred to as Groups. Therefore, Group 1 will be addresses 1-4, Group 2 will be address range 5-8 and so

 

on; up to a total of 63 possible groups.

 

Q & A Explanations

 

When I used a Select to programme the Point Decoders and they all worked fine. Now I have an Elite and it won’t programme my Point Decoders, what’s going on?

 

The Point Decoder

 

R8216 was primarily designed to be used with the Hornby Select unit. When attempting to programme the R8216 with the Elite it is possible for the programming process to fail on the first attempt.

 

This is due to the Select not having a dedicated programme

 

output connection like the Elite. This factor is a crucial difference when programming the Point Decoder R8216 with the Elite. The issue is to do with current limits.

 

During the programming cycle the Select track output connections is used. This output

 

is designed to run the locos as well as perform the task of programming. Because the Select output is designed both functions; it is not current limited.

 

More sophisticated controllers, e.g. the Elite, are equipped with low current dedicated programme

 

track outputs. The limited current programming output connection affords some form of protection of a decoder if a mistake has been made in “hardwiring” a decoder to a non DCC loco.

 

[poliss]

More from Hornby Customer Care.

 

Programming an R8247 Point & Accessory Decoder with an Elite DCC Controller

 

1. Plug in the power lead to the R8247 module and connect it directly to the ‘Prog’ slot on the Elite controller

2. Press

 

the ‘Menu’ button

3. Cycle the dial until ‘Acc’ is displayed and confirm by pressing Control 1

4. Select ‘Direct’ and press Control 1

5. Ensure ‘Address’ is displayed and confirm

6. ‘Write’ will appear and should be confirmed by pressing

 

Control 1

7. Input the desired address, for example ’61’ and press the control dial to confirm

8. The red LED will then flash numerous times, however, please ensure it flashes less than eight times

9. The R8247 has now been programmed, with

 

the other 3 ports being programmed as the next three consecutive addresses (e.g. 62, 63 and 64).

 

The following table lists the CVs that are supported by the decoder with their factory set default values:

CV Usage Value Range Default Value

 

 

513 / 1 Decoder Address LSB 1 – 63 15

515 / 3 Port 1 Current Flow Duration 0 – 255 1

516 / 4 Port 2 Current Flow Duration 0 – 255 1

517 / 5 Port 3 Current Flow Duration 0 – 255 1

518 / 6 Port 4 Current Flow Duration 0 – 255 1

519 /

 

7 Firmware Version (Read Only) 12 (Default) 12 (Default)

520 / 8 Manufacturer Id (Read Only) 255 (Default) 255 (Default)

521 / 9 Decoder Address MSB 0 - 7 0

 

The default duration for this decoder is 0.1 seconds which is adequate for switching

 

both the R8014 and R8243 point motors but may not be suitable for other types of point motor or solenoid operated accessories.

 

This duration can be adjusted by changing the CV for the port to provide a flow for periods ranging from 0.1 seconds to

 

25.5 seconds. A value of 0.0 seconds will create a permanent flow which allows the decoder to control dual aspect signals with lights that alternate depending on the directional setting.

The standard default address for the R8247 is 1-4. Please note:

 

There is a read back option for this Point & Accessory Decoder Unit, but it reads back Group Numbering, not the allocated address, please see the next page.

 

[Ollie0033]

Thanks Poliss - with these set of instructions I cannot see how even I can fail to get it wrong!!!

[Fishmanoz]

To summarise on your question answers:

 

1. See above noting you may in fact have some 8247s incorrectly labelled as 8216. Check date code.

2. See above re need to pre-charge the 8216.

3. Pre-charging as required for the Elite will also apply

 

for eLink for the 8216.

[Fishmanoz]

And there is no reason you can't use both, but note the 8216 will only do solenoid operated accessories like point motors whereas you can adjust the pulse length on the 8247 all the way to continuous operation to run other things like light signals and

 

non-solenoid point motors.

[96RAF]

Fishmanoz said:

And there is no reason you can't use both, but note the 8216 will only do solenoid operated accessories like point motors whereas you can adjust the pulse length on the 8247 all the way to continuous operation to run other

things like light signals and non-solenoid point motors.

I have both types on my layout but I'm not sure which one fires which points as they were set up on the bench then mounted under the table a long time ago.
Although I told RM that

they are all R8247s and they work OK, I take note of the different programming techniques stated above and would guess that if I ever wanted to reprogram them from RM I could have problems.

[Ollie0033]

Fishmanoz said:

And there is no reason you can't use both, but note the 8216 will only do solenoid operated accessories like point motors whereas you can adjust the pulse length on the 8247 all the way to continuous operation to run other

things like light signals and non-solenoid point motors.

[Ollie0033]

On the 8247 can you mix and match - that is to say a turn-table and points or are the finer settings done by address instead of all the 4 addresses for the decoder - I ask this question in advance since could influence cost of system

[Fishmanoz]

Yes, you can mix and match. The dwell time is done on the port not on the whole decoder when you first program it.

 

However note, the Hornby turntable motor is run via a loco decoder, not an accessory decoder.

[RDS]

@Peter Darton

Welcome to the Forum,  I have removed your duplicate post from this section as it becomes confusing when identical posts appear twice on the Forum.

[Chrissaf]

For the attention of Peter_Darton

.

Peter I have moved your post to a completely new topic titled "Unable to program R8216".