Crossover switching using ESU SwitchPilot

[31550]

I am using ESU SwitchPilot decoders to drive SEEP point motors. I have, after a lot of trial and error got most of the points working apart from three crossovers.

There appears to be a reaction when I try to operate them from Railmaster but nothing

 

actually happens.

I have read in this forum about changing the "Points timer" entry in the ini file to 2 which I have tried to no effect.

Ant suggestions?

[Flashbang]

Hi

How are you powering the Switchpilot? From the DCC or via a separate power supply?

To operate at its best you need a 16 volt ac or 20-22 volt dc power supply rated at around 3.5 to 4.0amp. A laptop PSU is often used but you need to ensure its,

 

one of the single output types not a twin output one.

Do not increase the pulse length time. It needs to be <0.5 second.

[31550]

I am powering the points from a 20Vdc 6.3A supply.

So I should set the "Points time" entry to 0.5?

Six individual points are working ok, it's just the three pairs that are used as crossovers that are the problem.

[Fishmanoz]

The points timer in the ini file and the pulse length are quite separate. Your having increased the value in the ini file is fine and doesn't affect pulse length, which should stay at the default of 500msec or less as Flashbang says.

 

Now tell us

 

exactly how you have wired your double points, and how you have programmed them and we may be able to help. You could also email RM Support and give them the same info.

[31550]

The crossover points are wired in parallel from the same decoder port.

I programmed the decoder by connecting the eLink prog connections to both the PwrA/TrkA and PwrB/TrkB connections on the decoder. I had previously removed the power leads from the

 

20Vdc supply.

[Fishmanoz]

Don't have the ESU leaflet in front of me but that doesn't look right. I would have thought the pwr A/B connections would still have to be to a power source, track or otherwise to you auxiliary supply. You still have the need to power the unit to run the

 

programming function?

[31550]

That's how I first tried to program them, but Railmaster said otherwise. Apparently when programming SwitchPilots, you connect as I wrote previously with the PwrA/TrkA, PwrB/TrkB pairings. After programming you reconnect the power supply. This seems to

 

be the way to do it, as six of the points are functioning, just not the crossovers.

[Flashbang]

Hi Again

What happens if you temporarily disconnect the common return wire to one of the two cross-over point motors? Does the other one work correctly? If so, disconnect that motors common wire and reconnect the first one. Then try that end of the

 

cross-over. Does that point motor then work correctly?

 

I assume you have two wires in each output connection on the SwitchPilot? Each wire is at least 16/0.2mm equipment wire. You should not be sharing a return wire or an operating wire between the

 

two motors. Each has its own direct wiring to the decoder.

[31550]

Flashbang,

Tried your suggestion on one of the pairs of points. The connected point switched, switched back and switched back again ending up in the correct position.

I then unconnected this motor and reconnected the other one, nothing happened when

 

switched.

The motor that worked is connected directly to the decoder, the other one "piggy backs" on from the choc block.

[Flashbang]

Ah, so you have located a problem.

Seeps need to be 100% in line with the point above. Both across the point and along it.

Try the failing one removed form the baseboard hanging in free air. See if it 'pops' over and back without any loading on it.

 

If its ok re fit it, but ensure it doesn't feel at all tight when the pin is moved over and back by finger. It should feel as free as the actual point does when moved over and back without the motor connected. Any slight stiffness needs resolving.

 

I

 

recommend for Seeps to run all three wires in at least 16/0.2mm equipment wire and not allow any one wire to feed two motors. Take all wires from each Seep A, B & C terminals back to the decoders terminals.

[St1ngr4y]

Pete,

I seem to have received a reply from Railmaster Support on this subject, which should have gone to you.....

 

"Dear Pete

 

Unfortunately we are starting off from the fact that we do not manufacture or support either the ESU Switchpilot

 

or SEEP point motors so do not know exactly how they work.

 

Having said that the Switchpilot is a NMRA compliant accessory decoder so should work as others do. We do know that the Switchpilot is a little fiddly when it comes to programming (having to

 

connect two sets of wires, ensure a switch is set and having a load on output 1) so could it be that something else needs to be set for SEEP-type motors.

 

From what you are describing the points used in pairs as crossovers (presumably connected to the

 

same output port) should work, as normal pairs of Hornby point motors connected to a single output of, say, a Hornby R8247 accessory decoder.

 

A couple of things spring to mind: a) Even though you are using a high current power supply for your SwitchPilot,

 

is the decoder in fact able to switch large currents for two SEEP motors? b) could it be that there are electronics within the SEEP motors that when you fire two together from the same output are interefering with each other? c) Do you need to set the pulse

 

output time of the Switchpilot to a higher value in order to maintain a longer current flow?

 

Regards

 

Hornby RailMaster Support Team"

 

I don't suppose you have received any emails from them starting "Dear Ray", have you?

 

Ray

 

[31550]

Flashbang,

One of the SEEP motors was out of alignment, which I corrected. I also ran the motor back to the decoder as you suggested. I can now get one or other of them to work but not both together, so no real progress!

[Flashbang]

Hi

Well you now have a 50% improvement!

Are you sure the non working one isn't out of alignment or bind slightly? Try dropping it from the baseboard so as its in free air, then operate both motors. Do they both move (one is moving a point of course).

 

If it still fails try both motors removed from their points.

 

You say you have wired each Seep individually, which is correct But what wire size is used for all wires? It needs to be 16/02.mm equipment wire or similar sized wire taken from each Seep

 

back to the decoders output connections where they join together.

 

BTW with reference to the Hornby reply Item b) Seep motors do not have any electronics or anything else other than a simple coil to operate the points over and back. They are virtually

 

the same as the Hornby R8014 point motors operation.

 

[31550]

Ray,

Thanks for forwarding the email.

How Hornby got the email addresses mixed up is beyond me!, and no emails for you.

[31550]

Flashbang,

The points are wired with 7/0.2, so this may be the problem. I will go out today and get some 16/0.2 and rewire these points.

Cannot see what else is causing the problem. Each point works in situ when the opposite one is disconnected,

 

but not together.

One of them switches opposite to the Railmaster diagram. Click right and it goes left and vice versa. I have tried reversing the polarity within the track plan, but it didn't help.

[31550]

Flashbang,

Rewired with 16/0.2 but no difference. I can fire each of the crossover points individually but not as a pair.

I believe that this may be a Switchpilot problem so I am registering with the ESU forum so that I can post there.

[Flashbang]

Hi

That's a good idea as some of the users there should have used Seeps.

 

But while waiting..... What happens when both your Seeps are removed from the points and are held in free air by their wires. Do they both then move together when operated?

 

It's

 

possible of course the Switchpilot just isn't able to drive two Seeps if there is any slight resistance to throw in the motors?

[Fishmanoz]

It's pretty clear from a few threads here, including this one, that SEEPs need more current then DCC accessory decoders want to supply. You may be stuck with running your crossover points on separate ports, and then you may have to adjust the decoder delay

 

time in the .ini file so it recharges sufficiently to throw the second point. You can experiment to find the shortest delay that allows reliable firing of the second.

 

So if you get nowhere with Flashbang's really good fault finding logic, this may

 

be your fallback. A pain I know if you have to do this.

[31550]

Flashbang,

Removed both of the SEEPs, but they did not fire together. Still waiting to join ESU forum, but if all else fails will, reluctantly, have to fire points separately, I need to get on with my layout.

[Flashbang]

Hi

Then your stuck I'm afraid! As you have now eliminated all the most likely causes - Binding, non aligned motor and wire size.

 

As the Switchpiolt has no internal CDU you're relying on the power supply being able to operate two Seeps at once.

 

A

 

Seep PM1 has a coil resistance of approx. 3.0 to 3.2 OHMs so at 20 volts you're Seep is drawing some 6.66 to 6.25 Amps from the supply, all be it momentarily. Your current demand for two Seep coils from your 20 volt dc supply and Switchpilot is highly likely

 

to be too great for the Pilot to be able to work.

 

Can you set routes or macros? If so, then set up a route or macro so as both point motor operate one after the other via two outlets, but it really looks as though you will have to have each Seep on

 

its own output.

[Flashbang]

Darn posted before I had finished!

Your other option is to trial a point decoder that has a built in CDU. The Hornby one does and there are other makes and self construction decoder kits available that do.

[Fishmanoz]

While it may be a mute point as to whether the Switchpilot contains a CDU or not (there is going to be a big capacitor on the end of its bridge rectifier for a start), it's spec says its total continuous output current is 3 amps. Clearly that is capacitive

 

or it would have trouble with the pulsed current to a SEEP as per what Flashbang has said. But it is also clear from what has been said here that it can't handle 2 of them and will need some recharge time (again sounds like a CDU)before it can fire again on

 

the port first fired, or any other port.

 

If that sounds like gobbledygook just take it as you can only fire one SEEP per output port, so you will need 2 ports for your crossover. And you will need to adjust your delay period in the .ini file by experimentation

 

to find the minimum delay before you can program the second firing.

[31550]

Thanks to you and Flashbang for your inputs.

I have posted on the ESU forum and the opinion is that you cannot fire two SEEP motors together. Therefore, I will now use one port per motor, at least that will get things working (fingers crossed).

I

 

should have done more research before buying SwitchPilots and SEEP, a decision that I now regret.

Just out of interest which combination of decoder/motor would you recommend, given that cost would be a decider?

[Flashbang]

Join MERG and obtain their Kit 52 Pulsed decoder. Cost is £12/kit or £3.00 per output. This will operate two Seeps from one output (I know because I use them) and has a built in CDU. Of course this option does mean you have to solder electronic components

 

onto a pre made circuit board.

 

Otherwise try a Hornby point decoder, the only down side here is they take all their power from the DCC system rather than a separate power supply.

 

[Fishmanoz]

This one appeals to me http://www.modelrailforum.com/forums/index.php?autocom=custom&page=TT300-Point-Motor note it programs as a loco not an accessory.