Planning a layout - DCC starting from scratch

[PJ_model_trains]

I have designed my layout using Hornby TrackMaster and have the timber coming in the next few days for the base board and frame. Once this is prepared I want to start and get ready for the wiring getting as much done under the board before I start on the

 

track laying itself.

 

During a different conversation 'idlemarvin' gave me this site...

 

http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/dcc.htm#Basics

 

Excellent site but a lot to take in.

 

From the details on this site it appears the best way is to

 

run a Bus wire round the under side of the base board, equal lengths left and right from the controller connect then take droppers of this wire for points and lights etc.

 

Am I right in assuming this is correct and what gauge wire would you guys suggest

 

for a) the Bus wire and b) the droppers.

 

They are suggesting soldering a piece of copper wire from the track to the underside of the board, then connecting by soldering or a cable connector from this to the bus wire. would 30 amp wire as used for house

 

wiring do for the drop from the rail to the underside of the board?

 

The wiring and set up is something I know nothing about so look to you guys for help please.

 

I have also never soldered in my life so comments welcome for these items.

 

Thanks

 

in advance

[Flashbang]

Hi

You don't have to use a DCC bus and droppers at all. Just fit Hornby Digital Point clips to each point - 2 per point are needed. But you then rely on the metal rail joiners (Fishplates) passing DCC power and data rail to rail.

 

Many modellers

 

will opt for the improved performance a bus pair of wires and droppers provide.

The minimum wire size I would recommend for a DCC bus wire pair is 32/0.2mm equipment wire which is a flexible wire or if solid wire is preferred 1.5mm2 stripped from former

 

mains type lighting cable.

 

For dropper wires you wont need the size of wire you're thinking of. 16/0.2mm equipment wire is the normally used wire size, but if the droppers are connected to each section of track and they are kept short to no more than

 

say 400mm long they can be of the smaller 7/0.2mm equipment wire. Try to obtain the dropper wires in the same two insulation colours as the bus wire is in, this will help avoid crossed wiring under the baseboards.

 

The dropper to bus connection can be

 

via twisted and soldered joints, screw terminal blocks (sometimes called Choc blocks) or Snap lock (Scotch lock) connectors. But the other end which connects onto the rails really needs to be soldered. You can solder them to the rails outer web area or to

 

the rails underside if the track hasn't been laid.

 

Don't forget for point operation via DCC you will need to use Point accessory decoders.

 

I would advise you to use a separate power supply 12 volts dc at 1.0Amp or higher current to fed all layout

 

lighting such as building, street and platform lights etc. Leaving the DCC to run the trains.

[PJ_model_trains]

Flashbang said:

Many modellers will opt for the improved performance a bus pair of wires and droppers provide.
The minimum wire size I would recommend for a DCC bus wire pair is 32/0.2mm equipment wire which is a flexible wire or if solid

wire is preferred 1.5mm2 stripped from former mains type lighting cable.

For dropper wires you wont need the size of wire you're thinking of. 16/0.2mm equipment wire is the normally used wire size, but if the droppers are connected to each section of

track and they are kept short to no more than say 400mm long they can be of the smaller 7/0.2mm equipment wire. Try to obtain the dropper wires in the same two insulation colours as the bus wire is in, this will help avoid crossed wiring under the baseboards.

The

dropper to bus connection can be via twisted and soldered joints, screw terminal blocks (sometimes called Choc blocks) or Snap lock (Scotch lock) connectors. But the other end which connects onto the rails really needs to be soldered. You can solder them to

the rails outer web area or to the rails underside if the track hasn't been laid.

Don't forget for point operation via DCC you will need to use Point accessory decoders.

I would advise you to use a separate power supply 12 volts dc at 1.0Amp

or higher current to fed all layout lighting such as building, street and platform lights etc. Leaving the DCC to run the trains.

Many thanks for your detailed reply.

A bus wire with droppers seems to me to provide even distribution and

can help if the odd fish plate link is weaker than it should be.

I am not keep on the snap fit connectors so would go for screw connectors or solder. Soldering will be trial I guess as I have never done it before. What solder would I buy and would I

need a flux (I have heard this mentioned previously)

Regarding the above... Don't forget for point operation via DCC you will need to use Point accessory decoders.

Is this the R8247 decoder for points and accessories?

[PJ_model_trains]

Looking at soldering irons online what Wattage would be best (you can tell I have not done this before)

 

I need it to be hot enough but not to hot to cause damage, comments and guidance welcome.

[Rog RJ]

I'd recommend a soldering iron of 25 watts which should be OK for most electrical jobs on a 00 layout. Some ppl are able to use a lower wattage iron and some can use a higher powered iron, whatever you do, practice first on some scraps of wire to get the

 

knack and the move on to a spare bit of track to practice on.

 

There are lots of threads about soldering on the forum and using the search facility will bring you lots of useful information.

[MetmanUK]

PJ_model_trains said:

Looking at soldering irons online what Wattage would be best (you can tell I have not done this before)

I need it to be hot enough but not to hot to cause damage, comments and guidance welcome.

Hi

PJMT,
I'm just ahead of you on the learning curve having built some baseboards and laid a bit of track. The soldering iron recommended is the Antex 25w (get the one with the silicone lead). I also purchased the 0.5mm bit as the one that comes with it is

a bit too big (literally). I purchased water-based flux and lead-free solder. I've done little soldering and have found these tools make it quite easy.

[PJ_model_trains]

Rog (RJ) said:

I'd recommend a soldering iron of 25 watts which should be OK for most electrical jobs on a 00 layout. Some ppl are able to use a lower wattage iron and some can use a higher powered iron, whatever you do, practice first on

some scraps of wire to get the knack and the move on to a spare bit of track to practice on.

There are lots of threads about soldering on the forum and using the search facility will bring you lots of useful information.

Thanks Rog

[PJ_model_trains]

MetmanUK said:

Hi PJMT,
I'm just ahead of you on the learning curve having built some baseboards and laid a bit of track. The soldering iron recommended is the Antex 25w (get the one with the silicone lead). I also purchased the 0.5mm

bit as the one that comes with it is a bit too big (literally). I purchased water-based flux and lead-free solder. I've done little soldering and have found these tools make it quite easy.

[PJ_model_trains]

That's brilliant MetmanUK excellent info.

 

All ordered just missed cut off time to receive tomorrow but Monday will be fine for me.

 

 

[MetmanUK]

PJ_model_trains said:

That's brilliant MetmanUK excellent info.

All ordered just missed cut off time to receive tomorrow but Monday will be fine for me.

One thing I should have mentioned - it caught me out in

a big way - was underestimating the amount of customisation wiring needed for DCC points. This also required additional power drop cables.

[PJ_model_trains]

MetmanUK said:

One thing I should have mentioned - it caught me out in a big way - was underestimating the amount of customisation wiring needed for DCC points. This also required additional power drop cables.

[PJ_model_trains]

Are there 2 wires to solder and drop for each point selanoid?

[Fishmanoz]

PJ, when considering a bus, there are 2 streams of thought. One says all you need is a single connection and DCC point clips and that has seen a number hear able to operate their layout reliably for years.

 

The other extreme says all non-soldered

 

joints are unreliable in the shorter or longer term, so a dropper is need to every separate piece of track. This will tell you 4 droppers are needed for each dead frog point, more for live frog to allow for frog switching.

 

One site that I have found

 

useful for a lot of this information about the bus extreme is the DCC Concepts web site. They have detailed discussion of wire size, live frog and, one thing not mentioned yet - bus terminators. These are to stop overshoot spikes from occurring on recovery

 

from shorts and so avoid decoder damage from such spikes. They are covered by Brian Lambert too.

 

Just on your soldering practice - the way to do things is to start by using flux on all parts to be soldered, then "tin" each part by putting a small amount

 

of solder on it, then put the parts together including twisting wires and add a little more solder. The iron must be on the part when you add the solder and the solder must flow over the entire joint to end with a shiny full covering of solder on the joint.

 

Lumpy dull joints are called dry joints, they are unreliable and must be redone. Sounds complicated but you'll get the feel for it quite quickly. You need to get the part up to temperature with the iron quickly,cap ply the solder and remove the iron to allow

 

it to cool. If you leave the iron on wire too long, you'll find the insulation melting and burning to some distance from the joint. You'll know you've been to long if this is happening.

[Fishmanoz]

That's apply not cap ply.

[PJ_model_trains]

Fishmanoz said:

PJ, when considering a bus, there are 2 streams of thought. One says all you need is a single connection and DCC point clips and that has seen a number hear able to operate their layout reliably for years.

The other

extreme says all non-soldered joints are unreliable in the shorter or longer term, so a dropper is need to every separate piece of track. This will tell you 4 droppers are needed for each dead frog point, more for live frog to allow for frog switching.

One

site that I have found useful for a lot of this information about the bus extreme is the DCC Concepts web site. They have detailed discussion of wire size, live frog and, one thing not mentioned yet - bus terminators. These are to stop overshoot spikes from

occurring on recovery from shorts and so avoid decoder damage from such spikes. They are covered by Brian Lambert too.

Just on your soldering practice - the way to do things is to start by using flux on all parts to be soldered, then "tin" each part

by putting a small amount of solder on it, then put the parts together including twisting wires and add a little more solder. The iron must be on the part when you add the solder and the solder must flow over the entire joint to end with a shiny full covering

of solder on the joint. Lumpy dull joints are called dry joints, they are unreliable and must be redone. Sounds complicated but you'll get the feel for it quite quickly. You need to get the part up to temperature with the iron quickly,cap ply the solder and

remove the iron to allow it to cool. If you leave the iron on wire too long, you'll find the insulation melting and burning to some distance from the joint. You'll know you've been to long if this is happening.

Thanks for the info. very helpful.

I will test on a piece of flexi track first ;-)

[PJ_model_trains]

Flashbang said:

Hi
You don't have to use a DCC bus and droppers at all. Just fit Hornby Digital Point clips to each point - 2 per point are needed. But you then rely on the metal rail joiners (Fishplates) passing DCC power and data rail

to rail.

Many modellers will opt for the improved performance a bus pair of wires and droppers provide.
The minimum wire size I would recommend for a DCC bus wire pair is 32/0.2mm equipment wire which is a flexible wire or if solid wire is preferred

1.5mm2 stripped from former mains type lighting cable.

For dropper wires you wont need the size of wire you're thinking of. 16/0.2mm equipment wire is the normally used wire size, but if the droppers are connected to each section of track and they are

kept short to no more than say 400mm long they can be of the smaller 7/0.2mm equipment wire. Try to obtain the dropper wires in the same two insulation colours as the bus wire is in, this will help avoid crossed wiring under the baseboards.

The dropper

to bus connection can be via twisted and soldered joints, screw terminal blocks (sometimes called Choc blocks) or Snap lock (Scotch lock) connectors. But the other end which connects onto the rails really needs to be soldered. You can solder them to the rails

outer web area or to the rails underside if the track hasn't been laid.

Don't forget for point operation via DCC you will need to use Point accessory decoders.

I would advise you to use a separate power supply 12 volts dc at 1.0Amp or higher

current to fed all layout lighting such as building, street and platform lights etc. Leaving the DCC to run the trains.

As I do not have the Majestic set yet it means I have to ask more questions, sorry.

I am assuming there are 2 live

and two neutral connections to the e-Link looking at an image of it. I am therefore assuming one pair are continuous flow for track and the other pulse flow for points is this correct?

I am therefore assuming I need two Bus wires on the frame under

the track boarding one for each stated above.

For the track I am considering 4 power points soldered connections per oval evenly situated at 90 degree intervals with power feed also to the passenger and goods sidings one for each group. This, to me,

is a sort of happy medium between one power point, which can have reduced current due to a fish plate connection and the over kill of every piece of track.

[PJ_model_trains]

Fishmanoz said:

PJ, when considering a bus, there are 2 streams of thought. One says all you need is a single connection and DCC point clips and that has seen a number hear able to operate their layout reliably for years.

The other

extreme says all non-soldered joints are unreliable in the shorter or longer term, so a dropper is need to every separate piece of track. This will tell you 4 droppers are needed for each dead frog point, more for live frog to allow for frog switching.

One

site that I have found useful for a lot of this information about the bus extreme is the DCC Concepts web site. They have detailed discussion of wire size, live frog and, one thing not mentioned yet - bus terminators. These are to stop overshoot spikes from

occurring on recovery from shorts and so avoid decoder damage from such spikes. They are covered by Brian Lambert too.

Just on your soldering practice - the way to do things is to start by using flux on all parts to be soldered, then "tin" each part

by putting a small amount of solder on it, then put the parts together including twisting wires and add a little more solder. The iron must be on the part when you add the solder and the solder must flow over the entire joint to end with a shiny full covering

of solder on the joint. Lumpy dull joints are called dry joints, they are unreliable and must be redone. Sounds complicated but you'll get the feel for it quite quickly. You need to get the part up to temperature with the iron quickly,cap ply the solder and

remove the iron to allow it to cool. If you leave the iron on wire too long, you'll find the insulation melting and burning to some distance from the joint. You'll know you've been to long if this is happening.

This information is very helpful,

thank you. I will test on a piece of flexi track.

[idlemarvel]

PJ_model_trains said:


I am not keep[n] on the snap fit connectors so would go for screw connectors or solder. Soldering will be trial I guess as I have never done it before. What solder would I buy and would I need a flux (I have heard

this mentioned previously)

...

Is this the R8247 decoder for points and accessories?

Feel free to solder your power connections but I have built half a dozen (small) layouts and never found it necessary, the standard push fit connections

work for me. I would not want this forum to put beginners off by implying you have to take up soldering, it is something you can take up as your experience demands, and before others leap in I would agree soldered connections are better. Yes the R8247 is for

points and accessories. It can be programmed to provide short power bursts (for standard point motors), longer on/off (for slow motion motors) or continuous (for colour light signals).

[PJ_model_trains]

Flashbang said:

I would advise you to use a separate power supply 12 volts dc at 1.0Amp or higher current to fed all layout lighting such as building, street and platform lights etc. Leaving the DCC to run the trains.

What

would this connect to? The eLink?

[PJ_model_trains]

idlemarvel said:

Feel free to solder your power connections but I have built half a dozen (small) layouts and never found it necessary, the standard push fit connections work for me. I would not want this forum to put beginners off by implying

you have to take up soldering, it is something you can take up as your experience demands, and before others leap in I would agree soldered connections are better. Yes the R8247 is for points and accessories. It can be programmed to provide short power bursts

(for standard point motors), longer on/off (for slow motion motors) or continuous (for colour light signals).

Hi idlemarvel

I agree with everything you say here, we must not put anyone off especially beginners but, soldering means concealed

wiring especially when on the underside of the track. I have never soldered before but feel it is worth a try. I also think now is the time to consider trying these things, once the track is laid it becomes a major job to change. If I cannot get the hang of

soldering at least I have tried and can then revert to the clip method.

[PJ_model_trains]

idlemarvel said:

Yes the R8247 is for points and accessories. It can be programmed to provide short power bursts (for standard point motors), longer on/off (for slow motion motors) or continuous (for colour light signals).

Unfortunately

the R8247 cannot be purchased anywhere, (unless you or others know different) everyone seems to have sold out and the next delivery I am lead to believe will be Christmas.

[Fishmanoz]

The 4 output connectors for the eLink are one pair of track connectors and one pair of program track connectors.

[Fishmanoz]

Accessory supplies connect directly to non-DCC items like likes, as suggested by Flashbang, and do not connect to the DCC system at all.

[Fishmanoz]

Solenoid point motors have 3 wires and connect to accessory decoders via the screw connectors on the decoder.

 

Decoders connect to the track or the DCC bus, which are in turn connected to the track output of the eLink.

[Fishmanoz]

And the thigh bone is connected to the knee bone. Suggest you keep Brian Lambert DCC by your bedside for now as all this and much more is in there. Easy for me to say having read most of it and remembered a little.