Train-Tech signals and set up in RailMaster

[PJ_model_trains]

I have just purchased 2x 3 aspect and 2x 4 aspect plus 1x dummy signal kit.

I found setting the Train-Tech signal up easy. I set RM signal up for 4 aspect, decoder port to 43, Type to Train-Tech color light signal, start up position 2 and set to clear. Then touched the learn contacts on the signal and the signals flashed, I then clicked the point arrow for green and the signal set to green. Train-Tech part set up.

The reason I set the start up position to 2 was I tried a 3 aspect first with decoder port 41 but because the RM manual showed a 4 aspect signal I decided maybe that would be easier to follow straight from the RM guidance notes.

I then went back to RM layout plan to signal set up and set SEQ/ Code/Setting to 

1 - 0043 - arrow green,  2 - 0043 - arrow red,  3 - 0044 - arrow red,   4 - 0044 - arrow green

Train Tech gives an example on their instructions as

Address eg 65  < or >  Red or Green

Address eg 66  < or > Yellow

I couldn't choose Yellow in RM, it only offered Red or Green in the setting to column

Has anyone experience this?

Has anyone experienced problems setting up in RM?

Have I missed something?

The simple straight ahead gives a green light, the points change to branch and gives a red light.(When controlled from the points)  The yellow lights do nothing from the points.

 

When controlled from the signal,  green to red does nothing. Red to single yellow does nothing. Single yellow to double yellow changes points to branch and sets signals to red.  Double yellow to green does nothing.

PJ

[HornbyRailMasterSupport]

Have you had a look at the Train-Tech track plan supplied with RailMaster?  It shows every Train-Tech signal variant, including settings for each signal and even relaying of multiple signals in a group.

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi HRMS

I have just been to watch the Chase and have my tea and whilst doing so I thought about the example track plans.

I will have a look shortly. Thank you for your help as always, I am sure this is something and nothing and once one is setup the rest will be easy.  I will confirm my findings if solved and provide another update if not.

Kind regards

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

My settings for the signal, 4 aspect Train-Tech, are the same as the settings in the Train-Tech example, except for the port used, they use 25 taking 25 & 26, I use 41 taking 41 & 42.

I have spent 3 hours on this tonight and am no further than when I started.

I have removed all signals from my plan, adding just 1x 4 aspect signal, decoder Train-Tech for color light signals.

The 4 aspect signal is now showing...

Red - for Red

Green for single yellow

Green for double yellow (no change)

Back to Red for Red

The yellow lights are not being processed???

Train -Tech instructions are easy to set the decoder port number. Put light to red, touch learn contacts to make lights flash, click signal in RM layout and it sets to green. 

Help!  I am already grey haired but am going bald I am tearing my hair out.

It has to be a small item I am missing.

[St1ngr4y]

Hi PJ,

The default sequence which you get when you choose a TrainTech 4-aspect signal should be the one which works. You shouldn't need to change it. I'll try to explain what's going on for a 4-aspect signal, of which I have six installed.

When you configure the signal itself in learn mode, you are setting up two consecutively numbered ports. So if you choose 43 as the port when you configure it, then port 43 becomes the port which controls the red and green lights, and port 42 controls the two yellow lights. However, the DCC protocol only allows the controller to send two commands to each port i.e. stop or clear. So for port 43 it's straightforward - a stop command illuminates the red light, a clear command illuminates the green light. For port 44, however, a stop command illuminates single yellow and a clear command illuminates double yellow. The electronics in the signal ensure that when a command is sent to one port, both of the lights controlled by the other port are extinguished. Before 1.56, these two ports had two be set up as 2 seperate 2-aspect icons on the layout diagram, and you had to click the correct icon to operate the correct pair of lights.

With 1.56, you only need one icon on the layout diagram for a 4-aspect signal. You then choose TrainTech colour light signal as the decoder type on the left, underneath the decoder port, then using the dropdown menu at the top right, choose 4-aspect. As soon as this is chosen, you will see the sequence appear underneath.:-

1   43   green (Clear)

2   43    red (Stop)

3   44    red (Stop)

4   44    green (Clear)

I've put stop or clear in brackets, because as I mentioned above, for port 44 these equate to single yellow and double yellow respectively. i.e.

1   43   green 

2   43    red 

3   44    single yellow

4   44    double yellow

So these are the colours which should be displayed after each consecutive click on the layout icon for that signal.

If you are sending a command to a 4-aspect signal from within a program, then pre-1.56 you had to send stop or clear to the appropriate port, but with 1.56, you only need to command port 43 but you can tell it single yellow or double yellow as well as stop or clear.

I don't have any 3-aspect signals, but I would imagine the correct sequence will be shown when you select 3-aspect in the signal's configuration.

Hope this helps

Ray

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi Ray  

I checked my set up in RM Pro and everything is have you have put above.

Last night I started to toggle the signal lights in learn mode and checked the outcome each time. Every one wrong but, as time goes on things get more frustrating and the best thing is probably walk away and come back to it later with a clear mine. In my case, this morning, a fresh start. 

I read your very detailed reply, thank you, I checked my settings, they were correct, so I thought start again. Then the penny dropped. I had set up RM Pro ports and other settings then picked up with the signal where ever it was, went to learn mode checked the system and it didn't work.

This morning I did the obvious!  Toggle the signal lights in RM to the one before green. For 4 Aspect toggle to 2 yellow, for 3 Aspect toggle to one yellow. Set the ports for each signal one by one, first 4 aspect, one touch to learn mode, click corresponding signal to green, light on signal green. Check and it works fine and repeat for each signal.

That was the problem, make sure the signal is stepped to the colour sequence before green before going in the learn mode. 4 signals set up in 5 minutes!

Train Tech signals are so easy to set up addresses, RM Pro is excellent also, it automatically sets the two ports for 3 or 4 aspect signals or 1 port for 2 aspect. As you say Ray it does it for you. Excellent providing your set up from the colour signal option before green.  Now on to signals and points, I played a little with this last night so don't expect a problem. 

I have a question Ray, although I think HRMS may be the one to answer it.

The light sequence for 4 aspect is Red, single yellow, double yellow, green back to red.  Say I have a train setting off on a single yellow, proceed with caution home stretch, once the train or all of its carriages pass the signal it should then be changed to red. With Loco Detection we hope to automate this. So with Loco Detection the end of the train, or last carriage passes the signal (the loco detection sensor near the signal) wil the lights go from single yellow to red or will they have to go single yellow, double yellow, red?

I welcome comments regarding this and thank everyone for their help sorting the above.

PJ

[HornbyRailMasterSupport]

The Loco Detection system, when available, will indeed allow you to automatically trip the passed signal to the next colour in the sequence.  You can also set it to trip all preceeding signals on the route to the next light in the sequence, just as in real life.

[PJ_model_trains]

Thank you HRMS

Unfortunately my light sequences have gone haywire again???

They worked fine after set up, I tried then 4-5 times no problem. I then included programming for the lights with signal code 11, first it worked then it went out of sequence?  I closed RM and re-opened same problem out of sequence. I checked details in track/signal set up they were fine. So I closed RM and unplugged the eLink, waited half a minute plugged back the elink and restarted RM. Same problem!

So I removed the point control settings and saved and restarted RM still not in sequence?

When I restart RM each time the signals resets to clear green so the four aspect are starting correct. And Stop red for the 3 Aspect. But as soon as I try use them they go out of sequence or alter and then stop, refusing to change.

HRMS I will send a support request through RM

Thank you

PJ  

[St1ngr4y]

Hi,

I think this is the point that PJ is making. You might not want a 4-aspect signal to go to the next colour in sequence. If it is showing single yellow when the train passes, you want it to change to red, not double yellow. However, in a program, you can do this. You can command a 4-aspect signal to go straight to red, no matter what colour it is showing at the time.

Ray

[HornbyRailMasterSupport]

You will be able to set this in Loco Detection.  The light must go to red and all the lights behind change approriately.  The next sequence after a train passes is red.

[PJ_model_trains]

That is correct Ray

[PJ_model_trains]

Thank you HRMS

Sounds good, the train driver(s) (us) can drive our trains and not have to worry about changing signals, only that trains are in the right zone and not going to fast, and not crossing into anothers track, and.... LOL but that will be fun, I can't say this is at the moment.

I am appy to try anything you suggest. Thank you in advance.

[PJ_model_trains]

Looking for a solution or something that may be causing a conflict, I have a question regarding the signals.

If a signal is set up as mentioned above and the only items set up are for the signal (no points at this stage)

Should a signal change when a point is changed?

[St1ngr4y]

Hi PJ,

Do you have a point set up with the same address as the signal?

Ray

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi Ray

I meant to cover that.

Points are set up using codes to 30.

Signals are set up using codes from 41 upwards

That was why I was concerned something was maybe not right in RM. Signals not altering as they should and some points altering when signals are operated.

As you know I only have 4 signals so far. I will explain best I can for the 2x 4aspect signals.

Visualise two lines in parallel coming out of a stations, platform between. At the end is a point/branch which links through to the other rail.  Points first, they are both set with port 11 so they are both open/straight or both branched to change track. Next we have a 4 aspect signal as trains leave the station, one is set on the inner line, port 41 & 42. One is set on the outer line 43 & 44.    

When I alter the outer signal the points change on some steps this shouldn't happen. I did at one point add details to change points code 11 when the signal was altered but removed this and the command is not there. I wonder if it is remembering part of it. 

To be more precise I would need to run RM and note every stage but the above should get my concern over and hopefully it may trigger something for HRMS.

I hope what I have explained above makes sense.

[St1ngr4y]

Hi PJ,

This sounds very similar to a problem I have reported through the system, concerning Traintech 4-aspect signals. My 4-aspects are numbered as follows:-

109/110

111/112

113/114

115/116

117/118

119/120

When operated by clicking the icons on the layout diagram, they all work as expected. However, I have numerous programs which change these signals, and I found that when a program changes signal 113 to any of the four aspects, as well as that signal changing correctly, signal 111 changes to single yellow. I reported this to HRMS a few days ago.

While waiting for an answer, I decided to try out the "other point/signal" facility, but in doing so I stumbled across a completely different problem which has to do with the fact that my signals have 3-digit addresses. I reported this as a new problem today, and I undid the "other point/signal" changes I had done.

Since doing this, I find that not only have I still got the original problem I described above, but now whatever aspect I try to change signal 117 to, signal 115 changes to single yellow.

There is a slight pattern here, in that the signal being changed affects the signal with a port address one less, BUT, changing signal 119 doesn't affect signal 117, and signal 111 doesn't affect signal 109.

I hope they find the cause of this. The only advice they have offered so far is to re-number the signals to leave gaps between the port addresses, but I have so many programs which use these signals, it would take me weeks to change them all.

Ray

[Fishmanoz]

Try translating your addresses to binary Ray and see if there is more logic to it?  Sounds like RM may be forgetting the least significant bit. 

[St1ngr4y]

Good thinking, Fishy, but the original signal being operated works fine. It's an extra command being send down the bus to the port address below. AND, it only happens in a program, not when clicking an icon on the layout diagram.

If it was the LSB, it would only be able to address the even numbered signals. But I guess it has got to be something as convoluted as that!! :-)

Ray

[St1ngr4y]

@Fishmanoz

The other problem which I reported yesterday concerned the numbering of my signals. 

In the layout designer, when you open up the configuration details for a signal, there is a field for specifying other points/signals to be operated when this signal is changed. In order to select an "other" signal, there is a dropdown list of signal numbers to choose from. The entries in this list are in the form of "signal n", where n is the signal number. BUT the n does not include leading zeros. The list seems to include all of the addresses from 1 upwards - I didn't look to see what the highest address was - but it is more than the list of signals in your plan. Finally, this list is sorted into alphabetical order.

Ok, so in the configuration for signal 113, I want to specify that when it changes to single yellow, signal 117 changes to double yellow, and when it changes to double yellow, signal 117 changes to green. In the "other signal" dropdown I select "signal 117" and set the boxes on each side to single yellow and double yellow. I put two entries referencing signal 117 in this table. I close down the configuration box, save the layout, and try it out. It doesn't work. I go back into the layout designer to check the configuration of signal 113, and in the "other signal" fields I had set up previously it is now showing "signal 11". I click on the dropdown list, and the highlighted signal from the list is "signal 110". So you are on the right "track" (excuse the pun), Fishy, only it is a least significant DIGIT, not bit !! :-)

Ray

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi Ray

You say 'I hope they find the cause of this'

Don't worry, they will. It is in their interest to sort it and quickly. Why? It will not do justice to sales of RM, it will put people off signalling at least until it is sorted, it will cause them a lot of problems and may further delay loco detection.

I will try what you have suggested and am willing to try any suggestion. 

Looking at one of the problems on my layout signalling, the problem of signals changing is where I have given the instructions to change port 11 for the dual points but after having problems removed everything in that section going back to signal only commands. It is as though it is remembering the commands, possible I do not know.

The other problem, I consider more serious is, the 4 aspect signals only want to consider 3 aspects and the three only 2 aspects, ignoring one other. I have tried to reprogram the signals by the one touch method they are designed to accept, the lights flash, the light goes to green when the signal is clicked but when I try them I get the reduced aspect situation (not in the right order) and other lights changing, sometimes, when the points are changed.

It is good that Fishy and Polis have jumped in here to help, anyone else feel free to comment if you can see a reason or possible reason for the issues experienced,  it is in everyone's interest to have this fixed as quickly as possible.

[St1ngr4y]

Hi PJ,

I don't understand what you mean by the "reduced aspect situation". Could you elaborate please.

Do you have a 4-aspect icon for the signal on your layout diagram? If so, what happens when you repeatedly click it?

Ray

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi Ray

Sometimes it is hard to explain yet seeing it you would say oh yes I see.

The signal is 4 aspect, RM Schematic has a signal all settings correct and set as a 4 aspect signal showing the two addresses for the signal ad 4 option for the two addresses.

But on the signal in the layout only 3 of the 4 lights are showing it is missing one option. I am trying to be careful explaining if I say only 3 lights are working someone will suggest the signal is faulty as one light is not working.

The signals worked initially when set up, all 4 lights, in the correct sequence than stop and get the sequence mixed up.

I have done some more tests this morning I will add then next.

Thanks for any comments and help Ray 

[St1ngr4y]

@PJ

In the past, occasionally, on exiting from the layout designer, I have found that a 4-aspect signal I had reconfigured in that session, was now showing a 2-aspect icon when the layout refreshed itself. When this happened I simply closed down RM and reloaded it and the icon came back as a 4-aspect.

It has happened two or three times to me, but not every time, so I thought it was so trivial that I didn't bother to report it.

Ray

[PJ_model_trains]

UPDATE FOLLOWING LATEST TRIALS

Determined to try sort out the issues experienced I thought the only way is bottom everything off and rebuild.

1 - removed all signals from schematic layout. done.

2 - check all points on the layout - address' set 1-30 no higher. Fire order set plus clear/stop for each signal. Done & OK

3 - Save as a new file and update settings to load new file on start up

4 - Close RM Pro and disconnect power to eLink

5 - remove 2x 3 aspect signals, leave only 2x 4 aspect signals in actual layout

6 - plug power in to eLnk, and restart RM Pro new layout opened fine. All points set to fire up order OK

7 - Open Schematic layout Add ONE signal only. Set controller A, Port 121, Type: Train-Tech colour light signal, start up 1, set to Stop/Red. Finally choose 4 aspect from drop down menu. Two addresses automatically show in list with four preset settings. Great.

8 - Save schematic layout and return to RM layout.

9 - Exit and RM and restart it.

10 - Lets set the first 4 aspect signal. Alter RM signal to double yellow (the light position before green) with small wire one touch signal to go to learn mode, signal flashes on layout to say it is ready. Click the signal in RM layout and the signal and the RM layout both show this signal as working and in correct order for the 4 aspect signal. Brilliant so far. Clicked to go through 3 cycles of the colours , 3 full routines working fine.

11 - Closed RM and restarted. Went to schematic layout and added the other 4 aspect signal. Set up in exactly the same way, same order, address used being 125 so there is a gap between the first one using 121 & 122, this uses 125 & 126. 

12 - This is where the problem started and got worse the more I tried to change signals. Firstly the second signal refusing to work in the right order although this worked exactly the same as the fist one when set up earlier? I then tried the first signal and this had started to cause problems now. The first signal in RM is going red then yellow back to red. The signal is going 1 yellow, 2 yellow back to 1 yellow?  I checked signal two again and it is doing exactly the same thing?

SUMMING UP.

HRMS you stated to me in an email.... 

Unless Train-Tech are making signals where there is inconsistency in the switching (most unlikely) then the example track plan "Train-Tech Signals" should give you good examples to work to, including relaying of signals.

I agree they should but it is not the signals... 

Both signals worked when set up and sent the correct address in learning mode to RM. 

When the second signal was added, it set up OK, but as soon as a light was changed in RM the order of both signal lights was messed up.

One think I can add here which helps us (incl. HRMS) focus on the signal problem is that by changing the address' to 121 and 125 the signals are NOT affected by the points changing.  Having said that, there could still be issues here as the problems I experienced after adding point instructions, the other day, were still there after removing the instructions.

I confirm I am running RM 1.56 version, revision update 8

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi Ray

It is important for HRMS to know about.

As you will see from my notes on here, I am forever exiting RM and re loading to ensure a clean start. Another example today was removing all signals and starting with a new file name to get as cleaner start as I could.

I think you should report these things, no matter how trivial, if they don't know they can't fix it and sometimes a small hole can cause a large crack, or a little bug can effect other things down the line causing even more problems. 

You are a good help on here Ray, you are ahead of many of us, so have experienced things before us. You persevered with two 2 aspect signals to make the 4 aspect, which is basically what the 4 aspect now does. I on the other hand got fed up with, it is coming, it is coming, but nothing happened so left things for a while. I appreciate there were health issues at the same time but credit to you Ray you continued with signals, programming etc.

Keep up the good work and thanks again for your help.

PJ