Train-Tech signals and set up in RailMaster

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi PJ,

Firstly, I know that TrainTech signals retain their aspect settings, not only between RM sessions, but also between power off and power on.

Secondly, I used to use an Initialise program to reset all of the signals, but then I configured each signal with a Startup position, and allowed RM to set them (as it can do with points) on startup of RM.

Third, I noticed a couple of weeks ago this "toggling" of aspects when Stop commands are sent to a signal by a program.

Fourth, to demonstrate this "feature" I re-employed my Initialise program.

So...

I run RM and it sets all of my 2-aspect signals to Red.

I run the Initialise program and it sets them all to Green.

I run the Initialise program again and it sets them all to Red.

I run the Initialise program again and it sets them all to Green.

I run the Initialise program again and it sets them all to Red.

etc etc

even though the Initialise program is trying to set them to Red every time.

Ray

 

Good morning Ray

 

Many thanks for the information, particularly the last part.  I will test this this morning and will let you know what happens. You definately appear to be receiving a triggering switch of the two aspect signals instead of a set command. What have HRMS said, they are looking in to it.

 

You noticed it a couple of weeks ago v1.59?  Have you tried a previous version?

 

Chat again soon.

 

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

 

Good morning Ray

 

I am going to provide two reply, one will answer your question and the other sadly will raise another issue.

 

Firstly what am I testing

 

I have 1x 2 aspect single signal, 2x 2 aspect double signals and 2x 2 aspect shunt siding signals which are just one switch Red/White so I was hoping these would work.  I did want to include the Shunt ones due to the shortage of single 2 aspect but they are on a different decoder so I cannot use them.

 

So to carry out the test I will use...

.

Signal-1 --- 2 aspect RH

Signal-2 --- 2 aspect LH

 

Signal-3 --- 2 aspect single

 

Signal-4 --- 2 aspect RH

Signal-5 --- 2 aspect LH

.

These were all set to Green on the layout and on the screen and RM was restarted at this point to get a clean start. The remember points box was not ticked in setup.

 

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

 

Hello again Ray

 

First the issue you raised and asked me to test.

 

At this point for a clean start I made sure all signals, on the screen and on the layout were Green. I then restarted RM so all signals should be remembered and start up as it closed down. Set points on start up is not ticked.

 

So far so good RM loads and all signals are still Green.

 

Now I will run a program which asked all 5 signal heads to change to STOP, one by one in the order shown with 1 second between each request.

 

On the screen all signals are Red.

 

On the layout the first signal togged Red and immediately back to Green? The other 4 are all Red. (This will be discussed in another post, so ignore the 1 wrong signal aspect for now.)

 

When I run the program again the signals toggle Red to Green (except for one signal)

 

As I re-run the program they toggle again, they do not do as the program requests set all to Red!

 

You are correct Ray, there is a toggle switch issue in programming.

 

PJ

[St1ngr4y]

I bet the signal which isn't conforming has an address which is exactly divisible by four, and the others don't.   :-)

Ray

[PJ_model_trains]

 

Now the other issue I am experiencing.

 

Signals just the same as before

Signal-1 --- 2 aspect RH

Signal-2 --- 2 aspect LH

Signal-3 --- 2 aspect single

Signal-4 --- 2 aspect RH

Signal-5 --- 2 aspect LH

 

These were all set to G - on the layout and on the screen.

 

At this point for a clean start I restarted RM all signals should be remembered and start up as it closed down. Set points on start up is not ticked.

 

So far so good RM loads and all signals are still G.

 

Now I will run a program which asked all 5 signal heads to change to STOP, one by one in the order shown with 1 second between each request.

 

On the screen all signals are Red.

 

On the layout the first signal togged Red back to Green? The other 4 are all Red.

 

Now run the program again asking all signals as before to be Red.

 

On my RM screen all signal aspects are Green.

 

On my layout however I have another problem Signal 1, 2, 4 and 5 are Green but signal 3 in Red? (signal 3 is not a dual head signal?).

 

In signal settings, middle column 1,2,4 and 5 signals are R/G. Signal 3 I had to change to G/R to have the correct aspect showing on screen and on layout when fired on its own. This was corrected before running the program.

 

Unfortunately reverse polarity has been disabled by HRMS, so I couldn't try that but, HRMS will say we should not need it because correcting aspects can be done, as done above, by changing the aspect settings R/G, G/R. 

 

Running the program several times it then goes from a clean restart with all starting Green...

 

Screen ALL Green

Signals 1-5 = G, R,  R,  R, R

 

Run Program request ALL signals STOP RED

Screen ALL Red

Signals 1-5 = G, G,  R,  G, G

 

Run Program request ALL signals STOP RED

Screen ALL Green

Signals 1-5 = G, R,  R,  R, R

 

Run Program request ALL signals STOP RED

Screen ALL Red

Signals 1-5 = G, G,  R,  G, G

 

Run Program request ALL signals STOP RED

Screen ALL Green

Signals 1-5 = G, R,  R,  R, R

 

The program should call every signal to RED no matter what they aspect they are but they are toggling from one to another with one causing a conflict each time. But not always the same one as you can see above?

 

HRMS will read this message I am sure but, meanwhile I will write to Train-Tech for their comments.

 

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

I bet the signal which isn't conforming has an address which is exactly divisible by four, and the others don't.   :-)

Ray

 

Thank you Ray

 

They both do!!!

 

I will re-program them and come back to you hopefully this afternoon.

 

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

I bet the signal which isn't conforming has an address which is exactly divisible by four, and the others don't.   :-)

Ray

 

Hi Ray

 

It is a blessing these are Train-Tech signals with built in decoders that can be programmed easily from the top and not have to keep going under the boards!

 

PJ

[St1ngr4y]

Hi PJ,

I think we are confirming the same problems here. One point however ,....

When you configured the signals using the "learn" technique, did you ensure that the signal on the track diagram was showing red when you clicked it? The reason I ask is that my "divisible by four" signals would switch immediately back to Red when the program was trying to switch them to Green - the other way around to yours.

One thing I found recently is that you can "teach" the signals from within the Track Design window.  Right click the signal to bring up its RM configuration. There are a pair of red/green buttons available to "try out" the signal from the Track Design window. Pressing the Green button when the signal is in "learn" mode will send the correct "Clear" message to the signal.

Ray

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi PJ,

I think we are confirming the same problems here. One point however ,....

When you configured the signals using the "learn" technique, did you ensure that the signal on the track diagram was showing red when you clicked it? The reason I ask is that my "divisible by four" signals would switch immediately back to Red when the program was trying to switch them to Green - the other way around to yours.

Ray

 

Hi Ray

 

Yes, I always set the signals;  2, 3 or 4 aspect, so they go to GREEN when clicked in learn mode.

 

For the reasons we discussed yesterday, this is the way they should always be set up.  ;o)

 

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

 

Hello again Ray

 

The Signal ID's for all 3 signals in the sidings were all divisible by 4.

 

I have re-programmed these so that every one starts with an ODD  number, not divisible by 4.

 

RESULT --- The aspect problem is FIXED. (Red is Red and Green is Green)

 

This now just leaves the fault discussed this morning that when a program requests each 2 aspect signal to go to STOP/RED, they toggle first Red and then GREEN, etc, etc.

 

This definately points to a x4 problem, but knowing about it, it can easily be avoided. Thank you.

 

I think back now to the 4x 4 aspect signals set to 15, 20, 25, 30 the only ID dividable by 4 was 20 not 30 but it would be interesting to have tried 15, 21, 27, 33. (I appreciate this could be 15, 19, 23, 27 but I always miss at least one number). I will have to wait for the signal to come back from Train-Tech before I can try the signal, or try it by changing ID's.

 

What I think I need to look at next is the 3 aspect Train-Tech signals.

 

Thank you for sticking at the divisible situation, I think you have definately hit a nail on it's head.

 

PJ

[St1ngr4y]

Hi PJ,

It is even more complicated than that, as I have pointed out to HRMS. My theory is as follows:-

When a program sends (in my case) a clear command to a signal (2- or 4-aspect), it follows it immediately by sending another command Signal Stop to the address which is the next lower multiple of four, or to the same address if it is a multiple of four. So for example, if you have four signals with addresses 16 17 18 and 19, and they are showing G R R and R respectively...

If a program sends Clear to 17 it will also send Stop to 16 immediately afterwards

If a program sends Clear to 16 it will also send Stop to 16 immediately afterwards which is the effect you have seen today.

If a program sends Clear to 18 it will also send Stop to 16 immediately afterwards

If a program sends Clear to 19 it will also send Stop to 16 immediately afterwards

Why it should do this second (Stop) command, I have no idea. If I reconfigure the 2-aspects as Hornby R8247s, the problem disappears.

Ray

[PJ_model_trains]

Hello Ray

 

Interesting! It is also interesting why it doesn't happen with Hornby's 8247 - 4 port decoder?

 

The problem also with 4 Aspect signals is there will always be one address divisable by 4. All we are doing in effect is making sure the first address is not divisabe by 4.

 

Have HRMS confirmed the reason it has to send a second command with Train-Tech signals but not with Hornby's 8247? I understand it with points but, why with signals?

 

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

UPDATE

 

Excellent after sales service from Train-Tech, I have just had an email to say they will send me a new 4 aspect signal and will test the one returned thoroughly without having to rush or keep me waiting.

 

With a new signal, I will not cut off the fingers initiallly, this will allow me flexibility to be able to slot it in the track anywhere between the 3 soldered ones or after them. This was partly why I considered purchasing a new one, although I would like to know what they find when they do test the returned one.

 

PJ

[St1ngr4y]

Hello Ray

 

Interesting! It is also interesting why it doesn't happen with Hornby's 8247 - 4 port decoder?

 

The problem also with 4 Aspect signals is there will always be one address divisable by 4. All we are doing in effect is making sure the first address is not divisabe by 4.

 

Have HRMS confirmed the reason it has to send a second command with Train-Tech signals but not with Hornby's 8247? I understand it with points but, why with signals?

 

PJ

PJ,

With four aspect signals you need two addresses, so you can pick a pair which are both not divisible by four. Even if you had 4-aspect + one feather, requiring three consecutive addresses, you can still choose three which aren't divisible by four e.g. 5 ,6, 7. But if you ever get a 4-aspect with two feathers, requiring four consecutive addresses, then you would be in trouble!! Maybe, if and when TrainTech bring out feathered signals, they make it so that consecutive addresses aren't a requirement :-)

The very first time I reported a problem with TrainTech 2-aspect signals (which was months ago), HRMS told me to revert to their R8247 configuration while they investigated. Before the TrainTech decoders were included in the RM configuration, I had all my 2-aspects running fine as R8247's and the 4-aspects configured as a pair of 2-aspect icons each defined as R8247's with consecutive addresses e.g. 117 / 118. In programs I had to send Stop/Clear to 117 to achieve R/G, and Stop/Clear to 118 to achieve Y/YY.

Ray

[PJ_model_trains]

Hello Ray

 

Interesting! It is also interesting why it doesn't happen with Hornby's 8247 - 4 port decoder?

 

The problem also with 4 Aspect signals is there will always be one address divisable by 4. All we are doing in effect is making sure the first address is not divisabe by 4.

 

Have HRMS confirmed the reason it has to send a second command with Train-Tech signals but not with Hornby's 8247? I understand it with points but, why with signals?

 

PJ

PJ,

With four aspect signals you need two addresses, so you can pick a pair which are both not divisible by four. Even if you had 4-aspect + one feather, requiring three consecutive addresses, you can still choose three which aren't divisible by four e.g. 5 ,6, 7. But if you ever get a 4-aspect with two feathers, requiring four consecutive addresses, then you would be in trouble!! Maybe, if and when TrainTech bring out feathered signals, they make it so that consecutive addresses aren't a requirement :-)

The very first time I reported a problem with TrainTech 2-aspect signals (which was months ago), HRMS told me to revert to their R8247 configuration while they investigated. Before the TrainTech decoders were included in the RM configuration, I had all my 2-aspects running fine as R8247's and the 4-aspects configured as a pair of 2-aspect icons each defined as R8247's with consecutive addresses e.g. 117 / 118. In programs I had to send Stop/Clear to 117 to achieve R/G, and Stop/Clear to 118 to achieve Y/YY.

Ray

 

Hi Ray

 

I remember you discussing it on the forum. But things have changed since then, we are now able to setup and use Train-Tech 4 aspect signals in RM so need, with HRMS help, to push out any problems we are still experiencing and be able to move on. That has to be in everyones interest.

 

PJ 

[St1ngr4y]

@HRMS

Hi,

Have you been following today's conversation between PJ and myself? Do you need one of us to re-report these problems or are you already investigating them?

Ray

[HornbyRailMasterSupport]

We are waiting to see what happens when PJ receives his new signal. Our replacement resolved the problem immediately and we are hoping his will do the same. Then we can look at other areas. Multi-aspect signalling and signal arrays are a complex area.

 

[PJ_model_trains]

Thank you for responding HRMS.

 

As you have probably seen from an update, they are sending me a new 4x 4 aspect signal.  This has advantages as I can slot it in anywhere between or on the end of the three that are soldered in position.

 

My post doesn't normally arrive until after lunch, so if it comes tomorrow I will test in the afternoon. If it comes Thursday it willl have to wait until Friday as I am in hospital a large part of that day.

 

I will update as soon as I can.

 

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

 

UPDATE

 

It was late when Train-Tech emailed me yesterday to say they are sending a new 4 aspect Train-Tech signal, so hoping for delivery today was probably a little over optimistic!

 

Unfortunately I do not expect to be available tomorrow so we are now looking at Friday.

 

Train-Tech have said their software engineer may wish to discuss the matter with me once he gets to look at the signal, I naturally welcome this, anything that can help them and RM has to help us, or future users long term.

 

Thank you for your patience

 

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi Ray

Add this in front of the details I gave you earlier   retirement   it will then make sense and will work. We can chat later.

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

Dear HRMS

[PJ_model_trains]

Dear HRMS

.

Copy of email sent earlier

.

I have received the brand new signal from Train-Tech and tried it in my layout, there is some mixed news here.

.

TEST-1- slot the new signal in the number 30 position and program to Green.- I am using layout file 'Train-tech Signals 150101 - OVAL HMRS' which is the basic 4 signal in a straight line altered to an oval as discussed last week together.- So the signal layout is 15, 20, 25, 30 and SIG30 is the new signal

.

RESULT of TEST-1

- Exactly the same as before!

.

TEST-2- in order to get rid of the port divisible by 4 as discussed on the forum, I programmed the signals to... 15, 21, 27, 33- I re-named the file for this test 'Train-tech Signals 150122 - OVAL HMRS'

.

RESULTS of TEST-2- The signal sequence worked as they should for the first 4 steps.

- Each signal pressed on their own go R, Y, YY, G, R, Y, YY, G --- Correct

.

DETAILS OF SIGNAL CHANGES WORKING THROUGH 15, 21, 27, 33, 15 etc

- Click SIG15 RED - back down the line works 33=Y, 27=YY, 21=G --- Correct

- Click SIG21 RED - back down the line works 15=Y, 33=YY, 27=G --- Correct

- Click SIG27 RED - back down the line works 21=Y, 15=YY, 33=G --- Correct

- Click SIG33 RED - back down the line works 27=Y, 21=YY, 15=G --- Correct  

These are all correct using port addresses not divisible by 4 ;o)

.

Back to signal 15

- Click SIG15 YELLOW - back down the line works 33=YY, 27=G, 21=G

- Click SIG21 YELLOW - back down the line works 15=YY, 33=G, 27=G

- Click SIG27 YELLOW - back down the line works 21=YY, 15=G, 33=G

- Click SIG33 YELLOW - back down the line works 27=YY, 21=G, 15=G

Correct back down the line from Yellow

- BUT Incorrect first aspect this should be RED and has moved on one step?  

Red would follow Green not Yellow following Green.

.

Back to signal 15

- Click SIG15 YELLOW/YELLOW - back down the line works 33=G, 27=G, 21=G

- Click SIG21 YELLOW/YELLOW - back down the line works 15=G, 33=G, 27=G

- Click SIG27 YELLOW/YELLOW - back down the line works 21=G, 15=G, 33=G

- Click SIG33 YELLOW/YELLOW - back down the line works 27=G, 21=G, 15=G

Correct back down the line from Yellow/Yellow

- BUT Incorrect first aspect this should be RED and has moved on one more step?

.

Back to signal 15

-Click SIG15 GREEN - back down the line works 33=YY, 27=G, 21=G

- Click SIG21 GREEN - back down the line works 15=G, 33=YY, 27=G

- Click SIG27 GREEN - back down the line works 21=G, 15=G, 33=YY

- Click SIG33 GREEN - back down the line works 27=G, 21=G, 15=G

Because Green is Green at 15, 21, 27 these do not/cannot change so in effect SIG33 remains YY until clicked then it turns Green

- BUT again Incorrect as first aspect should have been RED, it too has moved on another one step in this group of 4 signal changes?

.

Back to signal 15

- Click SIG15 RED - back down the line works 33=Y, 27=YY, 21=G --- Correct

- Click SIG21 RED - back down the line works 15=Y, 33=YY, 27=G --- Correct

- Click SIG27 RED - back down the line works 21=Y, 15=YY, 33=G --- Correct

- Click SIG33 RED

- back down the line works 27=Y, 21=YY, 15=G --- Correct

- so it moves one step each tie round until completed the four rotations then comes back to red and starts over again.

.

CONCLUSION

1 - there definitely appears to be a divisible by 4 problem with port address but, knowing about it it is easy to avoid.

.

It just means the signal sent back to Train-Tech is probably not faulty. I will have to do the right thing and let them know and offer to pay for the one sent but, not until we conclude the issues together.

.

2 - there appears to be a problem after the loop of four signals where it steps one aspect for each group of 4 signals? this is not cyclic as a result of the 4 signals and shouldn't happen as the signal being changed, SIG15, is GREEN and the next aspect should be RED.The reason your layout worked and mine didn't could very easily be down to this divisible by 4 port issue, as your layout is totally different to mine we both got different results. But what is clear, I feel, is by changing the port addresses to start with a number not divisible by 4 has solved the main part of this issue. And the good news is it is easy to avoid by not using port addresses divisible by 4.

.

The second issue I was aware of when we were doing our previous tests together, that was why I always restarted RM to have a clean start. It was important, I thought, to solve the initial issues and then see what worked or didn't work.

.

I am pleased to say for the first time things appear to me to be more positive, I hope you agree and hope also after testing the final issue/hurdle can be overcome easily..Thank you for your help as always, if you have any questions please feel free to email me as you have in the past.

.

Kind regards

.

PJ

[St1ngr4y]

Hi PJ,

Very interesting. Three things....

1. You have confirmed a statement I made earlier in the thread - when a signal has been changed by another signal, RM is not updating that signal's position in its click sequence, even though it has updated the aspect being shown on the icon on the layout diagram. To overcome this, have you tried (in the "Back to signal 15" sets) clicking and holding the click on the signal icon, to force it to red ?

2. Have you tried all of the above under the control of a program, rather than clicking the layout diagram?

3. Just to be absolutely sure of this "divisible by four" phenomenon, would it be too much trouble if I ask you to address your signals as even numbers which aren't a multiple of four e.g. 18, 22, 26, 30. The reason I ask is that each Traintech 4-aspect signal, as you know, uses 2 consecutive addresses, so for example the signal you have "taught" address 15, will use 15 for R/G and 16 for Y/YY, and of course 16 is a multiple of four. 

Ray

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi Ray

 

I  submitted a reply but it has been held, I must have mis-spelt something that the system didn't like!

 

Hopefully it will be edited and released soon, meanwhile, HRMS have sent a file they have used for me to set up and try 15, 20, 25, 50 port addresses, so I will need to do this before all the other tests mentioned in the previous message.

 

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi Ray

 

My message which was with held briefly said...

 

I tested the signals yesterday using ports 15,20,25, 30 which included a divisible by 4 port in the set.

 

There was an error as before.

 

I then tested the signals using ports 15,21,27,33

 

And as we know there was not a fault in the initial 4 x 4 sequences R,Y,YY,G x4 signal changes.

 

So, what I said was, has I have used port ID's around 250, which included a divisible by 4 port number I would try this as a second test.

 

I would then change the ports to 4 addresses around those numbers not including any port with a divisible by 4 number.

 

It seemed to me to make sense to try this comparison as it replicates the events of the lower number ports in the same way with much higher number ports.

 

I would then go on to test the items you have mentioned but, meanwhile HRMS sent a new file for testing, so it seemed natural that my priorities had  to change to test the HRMS track plan file first. I have spend over 1.5 hours on this and have emailed HRMS with my comments, what I found and what worked and what doesn't.

 

Updates will follow.

 

PJ