CR Signals - signals with route indicators and sidings signals

[PJ_model_trains]

As there is quite a bit of discussion  at present regarding signals, I add this thread which includes CR Signals http://www.crsignals.com/

They have a nice range of signals, including those with feathers/route indicators.  They also have sidings/shunt signals which I haven't seen any where else.

At present RM doesn't include for CR Signals or many other companies signal controllers in their drop down list but they are working on it.

The user manual appears seems easy to follow.

I have contacted the company for more details and will supply an update should I feel any information may be helpful to guys on ths forum

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

UPDATE

This company are no only very helpful but a quick response  to my questions was received, they are also happy for me to share them so I list them below as they may help others.

NOTE: the discussion the company has included in their reply regarding RailMaster is related to the old v1.55 not 1.56 which includes RM pro.

My questions and their replies.....

Could you tell me the following.

1 – are the wires for the feathers inside the tube and sold complete?

Yes they are.

 

2 – how long are the wires from the base of the signal?

Approximately 8” for N gauge, 9” for OO gauge.

 

3 – I have looked at your SC1 controller Pdf file and from what I read it appears I need two controllers is this correct?

(My question was based also on a comment I made earlier with them which included shunt signals)

No, to run two 3 aspect signals with a single feather on each you only need one SC1 controller

 

4 – I have looked in the long list of controllers in RailMaster Pro and do not see SC1 type, can you tell me more make of controller etc? From our e-mail exchange in April of this year:

Please see an extract of a conversion I was party to between a customer and the manufacturer of the Signalist SC1 decoder with regard to getting the Signalist SC1 signal decoder working with the e-Link / Railmaster set up:

 NOTE: as mentioned above the details below were discussed when only RM v1.55 was available

“I have just had a look at Railmaster. As I mentioned on the telephone there is no need to configure the SC1, it comes from the factory with the correct settings to operate four CR Signals 2-aspect signals.

 

As far as I can tell all you need to do in Railmaster is to add your signals on to the panel in the track plan designer. They need to be allocated four consecutive addresses by right clicking each signal. Settings should be:-

 

Controller – A

Decoder port – (one of four consecutive addresses)

Type – Lenz LS100

Startup up position – not important, use whatever you want.

Reverse polarity – unticked

 

Save your panel and then go to operation mode as if you are running trains.

 

Once you have done this put the jumper on pins 1 and 2 of the program jumper (near where the letters PGM are printed) on the SC1 and attach the SC1 to the track output of the E-link. Click on the lowest addressed signal in railmaster so that it changes colour and then click it again. Immediately you have done this remove the jumper from the SC1 and power off the E-Link. Power the E-Link back on and the four signals should then work and change whenever you click them on the Railmaster panel.

 

While this should work I have heard reports that there are bugs in Railmaster that means that in some circumstances Railmaster cannot be used to operate more than one signal on a decoder because the address on the screen is different to what is sent to the track. If that is the case you will have to wait for a resolution from Hornby – this bug affects all accessory decoders with more than one signal attached.”

 

5 – How easy is it to set up CV address?

Very easy if the instructions in the manual are followed.

 

6 - If I place an order how quickly do you turn orders round?

Next day so long as we have the signals with route indicators in stock. If not then the  turn round would be 5 working days.

Note:  The current version of RM v1.56, although it doesn't list the SC1 controller it does however include the Lenz LS100 controller.

PJ

[idlemarvel]

Thanks PJ.

I have a CRsignals ground signal and it works very well.

I have not used their (Signalist) SC1 decoder but it looks to be extremely versatile.

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi idlemarvel

I like the look of the ground signals so ordered two, and two 3 aspect signals with route indicators, and 2x SC1 decoders.

I found Paul at CR Signals very helpful. 

I also opened a new layout page in RM, put a small oval on it and a signal. Then programmed the signal with a Lenz100 decoder and set for 3 aspect with feather.  I then set 4 codes (which normally come up when Hornby have the decoder/controller listed) saved layout as Test Lenz100 and gave it a try.

Signals worked in right order on my layout so hopefully it shouldn't be to hard to set up using Lenz100 controller for the SC1.

The controllers are not cheap but as you say they do look extremely versatile. Two signals with feathers will use one decoder, two siding signals in the other with spaces free.

I will give an update once they arrive and I get them fitted. Probably not as fast as the rest as I need to get someoone to lift my layout and finalise the lighting at same time.

PJ

[Fishmanoz]

Hey PJ, can you stop confusing me by saying controller when you mean decoder please. You sent me off trying to find out what a Lenz controller can do that Elite or RM can't until I realised. 

[PJ_model_trains]

Hey Fishy, I didn't know we had to always dot the i's and cross the t's so to speak. But I do understand words can be deceiving if not clear, at first I thought you were a male mermaid from down under  ;-)

Some companies refer to decoders some controllers. Reading the pdf for the SC1 it says, 'DCC signal controller user manual'. I thought a card was a controller and the CV addresses are the decoding part (I could be wrong) but is it that important at the level I was disccussing Fishy?

Everyone else knew what I meant, sorry to send you down the garden path with this one. Erm garden path, could be taken wrongly, I bet it would be if I said Ginnel   ;o)

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

The signals from CR Signals have arrived.

The quality of them is good, the ladder and gantry are metal not plastic like the Train Tech ones. The feather, route inicator is also very neat.

The SC1 decoder board is very comapct. The power connections and the signal conections are all very clear as are the jumper points for setting up the decoder.

I do not expect them to work straight away as HRMS haven't included the decoder in their drop down list so expect to set them up as other three aspect signals with feathers in RM and then discuss any adjustments etc with CR Signals seller of the signals and Signalist maker of the SC1 decoder.

I do hope HRMS sorts this soon as it is work under the board and I have to wait for someone to lift the layout for me to do the work. Once I get these signals and the shunt signals installed that will be it until Loco Detection.

PJ

[Fishmanoz]

PJ, a couple of things: first,score to be a little picky, I wasn't intending to be, but when you used controller and decoder interchangeably, it did confuse me for a while. To me, a controller is something you use to control trains and accessories by sending DCC power and signals to your layout, like Select/Elite/RM. A decoder is the thing in those locos and accessories that receives those signals and makes the thing operate. 

The other thing is accessory decoders: these work in accordance with that part of the NMRA specification dealing with them. Some decoders may have less than all of features specified but those features included will operate in basically the same way. We already know for instance that some decoders have learn mode programming on the track by operating a switch or closing a link on the decoder and operating the accessory you want it to control. Others don't. In some you can adjust the pulse length but in some designed only for solenoids you can't. My point: you don't necessarily have to have your particular decoder listed in RM to be able to operate it.  The chances are one already there has the same features and so will be able to program and operate yours quite successfully. In this case, if the Lenz has the same features as the SC1, you will be fine. 

How can you tell? Simple, just look up their specifications. I know you already have the SC1 spec, so just look up and compare it with the Lenz. Then try it, and you may be surprised. After all, all they have is a number of ports which produce various pulse/continuous outputs, they can't be that different.  In fact, if you were programming and operating with an Elite, you just do it with no provision for knowing what brand of decoder you have at all  

But I'm happy to be shown to be talking through my hat again. 

[RDS]

PJ said "Once I get these signals and the shunt signals installed that will be it until Loco Detection."

No chance!

You confused me as well with your controller quote!

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi guys, thanks for your comments and help, sorry for any confusion.

I expected to get the SC1 set it up go to RM set it as other 3 signals with feathers in RM and it work, but it hasn't and instead of trains going round and round my head is instead.

I set the Signalist SC1, DCC signal CONTROLLER user manual which covers configuration for UK signals.

So I take the SC1 asthe controller words taken from their Pdf file.

Manual here

http://www.crsignals.com/downloads/Signalist_SC1_manual.pdf

I set the DECODER as detailed on page 20.....

Setting the address automatically
It is possible to set the decoder address automatically using the PGM jumper. To set the address automatically use the following steps.

1. Power off the SC1.
2. Fit the PGM jumper to pins 1 and 2 of J5.
3. Power on the SC1.
4. Operate the desired base address on your command station to both Normal and reverse.
5. Power off the SC1.
6. Remove the PGM jumper.
7. Power on the SC1

I set RM up as follows

Contorller A

Decoder port:  0174

Type:  Lenz LS 100 4 port decoder

Set to Clear

Seq-1     Port 0174   Setting Red

Seq-2     Port 0175   Setting Red

Seq-3     Port 0176   Setting Green

I get a red and yellow signal light on on ALL aspects

I also tried

0174, 0174 & 0175 same pattern as Train Tech with this I received

On start up of RM Signal is Red and feather and RM is Green and feather (Clear)

I click signal in RM and the signal itself doesn't change

The other signals on my layout Train Tech are all working correctly.

Below is an email from Signalist

PJ

 

Unfortunately the evaluation version of Railmaster does not include the features you are using so I cannot establish exactly what needs to be done. The first thing that you need to do is to configure the SC1 for the 3-aspect CR Signals that you have by connecting the SC1 to the programming track and setting CV38 to 9 on the SC1. At the same time you can set the decoder base address to 174 by setting CV29 to 192 and CV1 to 178.

 

Without access to the manual of the version of Railmaster you are using I will not be able to discuss exact configuration of Railmaster with any authority. The earlier version (1.55) would need to set routes in order to control signals with more than two aspects because Railmaster has no support for the NMRA signal protocol and Railmaster does not appear to have any support for truth table signals either – these are the main methods used for controlling complex signals in DCC. This limitation may still be the case with the newer version where the accessory commands and signal commands will need to be included in a route.

 

Here is a table showing how the three addresses will need to be set in order to display the aspects on the first signal connected to outputs A-D. Addresses with an X shown can be excluded from the route :-

 

Aspect                             174  175     176
Red                                     R    R        X
Green                                   G    R        R
Yellow                                  X    G        R
Green with feather                      G    R        G
Yellow with feather                     X    G        G
 
R= Red, G= Green, X= Don't care
 
Add 3 to the addresses for the second signal (177 - 179) on outputs E=H.

 

As you can see each aspect requires at least two of the addresses to be set. 176 (and 179) will be part of a route anyway and will be set when a point is changed that sets the route indicated by the route indicator which will make life easier. I suspect that the easiest course of action will be to set the signal to red when the route is set by including 174=R and 175=R and 176=R/G depending on the route, and then just a single command will be required to clear the signal from red as in the following table:-

 

Aspect  Command
Green     174=G
Yellow    175=G

 

As an example this is what the routes should look like for a right hand divergence:-

 

Main route

174=R

175=R

176=R

<point>=L

 

Diverging route

174=R

175=R

176=G

<point>=R

 

The signal can be returned to red once the train has passed by triggering the route again.

 

I hope this is helpful, let me know if you have any further questions.

 

Prior to purchasing I also received this which was a discussion for RM v1.55 so I thought it should be easy to set up.

 

“I have just had a look at Railmaster. As I mentioned on the telephone there is no need to configure the SC1, it comes from the factory with the correct settings to operate four CR Signals 2-aspect signals.

As far as I can tell all you need to do in Railmaster is to add your signals on to the panel in the track plan designer. They need to be allocated four consecutive addresses by right clicking each signal. Settings should be:-

Controller – A

Decoder port – (one of four consecutive addresses)

Type – Lenz LS100

Startup up position – not important, use whatever you want.

Reverse polarity – unticked

Save your panel and then go to operation mode as if you are running trains.

Once you have done this put the jumper on pins 1 and 2 of the program jumper (near where the letters PGM are printed) on the SC1 and attach the SC1 to the track output of the E-link. Click on the lowest addressed signal in railmaster so that it changes colour and then click it again. Immediately you have done this remove the jumper from the SC1 and power off the E-Link. Power the E-Link back on and the four signals should then work and change whenever you click them on the Railmaster panel.

While this should work I have heard reports that there are bugs in Railmaster that means that in some circumstances Railmaster cannot be used to operate more than one signal on a decoder because the address on the screen is different to what is sent to the track. If that is the case you will have to wait for a resolution from Hornby – this bug affects all accessory decoders with more than one signal attached.”

[PJ_model_trains]

Hello again

 

Suddenly the penny dropped I needed to read and write CV’s for the decoder.  I have done this for the trains but not for accessories.

 

I checked the latest manual, RM v1.56, starting on page 73, I clicked the signal/point icon in RM to take me to the accessories decoders. The power leads had been removed from the track to the PROG terminals on eLink ready.

 

So far so good, I now seem to be, hopefully, on the right track.

 

Having connected to the PROG and clicked the Accessory decoder section a box pops up. First it requests Decoder model from the drop down menu. I chose the Lenz LS100 4 port decoder.

 

I then clicked the ‘Tick’ to read the decoder settings....

Please wait reading accessory decoder settings box pops up.  I wait for it to read the CV’s, a minute or more, during  which time the signal attached to the decoder flashed approximately three times.

 

The message in the pop up box then changes and says... No response received from the accessory Decoder module. Please ensure it is connected to the programming track output and try again and, where necessary, that separate  power is supplied to the unit.

 

It is connected? The signals flashed during reading? It is connected to the PROG connections with its separate supply of power?

 

I clicked the TICK again and it says... Are you sure you want to abandon the changes you have made? No list of CV’s and no changes made so I abandoned?

 

I then tried the same using the Hornby R8247 4-port decoder. Exactly the same, reading, signals flash as it reads and same ending message... No response received from the accessory Decoder module. Please ensure it is connected to the programming track output and try again and, where necessary, that separate  power is supplied to the unit.

 

Can anyone help me here.

 

This is STAGE-1 suggested by Signalist... except I am attempting the read through the accessory decoders not locomotive decoders.

 

1. You need to configure the SC1 to match your 3-aspect with feather signals. to do this you will need to connect the track input of the SC1 to the programming track output of your command station. You will need to refer to the section of the Railmaster manual that deals with programming CVs - it is on page 42 of the manual that I have here (v1.53). This section is headed 'Reading and Writing Locomotive CVs'

1.1 Set CV38 to 9
1.2 set CV29 to 192
1.3 Set CV1 to 178
 
Once you have completed this you will be able to connect the SC1 to the track output of your command station and commence the configuration of Railmaster.

[PJ_model_trains]

I have been testing different things looking for a solution.

 

Having read the CV’s, although it gave me the error at the end, nothing else, I thought may be, click to write them back again, on doing so I receive this message.

 

To program this accessory decoder you need to first press a button on the unit?

 

For Lenz, press the button on the front of the unit until the red light appears?

 

Ensure the unit is connected to the TRACK not PROG output.

 

As there is no red button, it is not a Lenz unit, does this mean put the jumpers on the learn mode again?

(I have emailed Signalist to aask this question)

 

I will not go any further at this stage and as I cannot exit I will unplug the power to the eLink to come out of this stage.

 

Comments welcome

[Fishmanoz]

PJ, yes, the jumper is the SC1 learn switch. It's clear from what you have said sbout its use. 

Also, elsewhere someone has said that you can't read accessory decoder CVs with RM but you can write them. I doubt you can do it on the track though, only the programming track. As a matter of interest, what does the manual tell you these CVs do?

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi Fishy thanks for your comments.

To confuse me further I have just received this message by email from Signalist...

You need to program the SC1 as if you are programmming a loco. The special programming features for accessory decoders are mostly for those accessory decoders that do not have CVs in the conventional way that locos do. If you have tried to program the SC1 you might like to reset it to the factory default setting with CV8=8 before you go on to make sure that you are back at square one before programming CV1, CV29 and CV38 to the values I specified (these are the only CVs that are not at the default value). While the SC1 operates much like the LS100 out of the box (just connect four 2-aspect signals and away you go), it is very different inside with a lot more settings that allow it to be configured for other signal types.
 
Don't worry too much  if you cannot read the CVs, just being able to write them should be OK. Once you are up and running we can discuss what some of the other CVs do that might be of interest to you. I would recommend that you download a copy of JMRI for the DecoderPro application which has a very comprehensive section for advanced configuration of the SC1 but that will not be necessary for what you are trying to do now.

I cannot program a decoder from the loco section?

Having not got to a situation to read CV's, I am not sure  how I can write them. But first I need to be in the right location to do so?

I am aware of the jumper and which two pins it goes on, what I was asking was do they have to be in position, putting it in learn mode, to write the new CV addresses?

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

I disconnected power to the track, just leaving power to eLink and via the PROG terminals to the SC1 decoder.

Jumpers set in 'Learn mode' 

I chose loco 0090 knowing this was a free address, it brought up a blank list for loco CV's. I tried to read them but it didn't want to play ball. Having read some won't, I tried to write 8 to CV8. The code went in and was green as it should be.

I clicked to write the CV8 to 8. Writing... then... Confirming... then...  Confirm failed.

I then tried to set CV's as suggested by Signalist

CV1 = 178 it changed it to 127

CV29 = 192

CV38 = 9

I chose not to write these CV addresses at this stage and wrote again to Signalist.

Comments always welcome.

PJ

[St1ngr4y]

Hi PJ,

I'm afraid it looks like you are the pioneer in using these signals with Railmaster. It could be the only help you are likely to get is from Hornby and/or CR Signals. I'm just sorry I can't help.

Ray

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi Ray

Lifes a challenge!  Every day is a learning day! These things are sent to try us!!! etc. I get frustrated, have a moan, then try look for the positive things instead of the negative ones.

I get so frustrated sometimes, but have nobody else to blame, I guess I was spoilt with the setting up of the Train-Tech signals. They are so easy.

I was doing so well and spent a packet on signals, I know if I get away with the signals it will be easier for my wife, after a moan, to agree to loco detection. But, if I haven't got all my signals there will be little chance of LD.  My real frustration is, I almost finished the street, car & house lighting, there are two little bits to finish off, I also replaced a set of points but need to wire underneath. Because I have to rely on someone lifting my layout for me to do it, I thought, if I get the signals complete, finalise the CR Signals ones with feathers and sidings signals and decoders all in one go, that will get everything under the boards complete for now and I can play. Because I am held up this means until I get signals tested above the track I cannot have it lifted to finish everything under it, so can only run my track minus one cross over. Naturally it spoils the route sequences I want to try.

Self created Ray, to ambious, my fault, but having said all that, thank you for your kind thoughts, I know you woud help if you could.

CR Signals are not the ones to help here although I purchased from them, Paul at Signalist is the man for the SC1 decoder.  What seems to be a problem is none of these companies seem to have RailMaster 1.56 to test their signals or decoders with but, I do know some have provided Hornby with signals etc for them to set them up in RM. Not for me to get into all I want/need is thes esignals and decoders to work so I can finish under the layout. HRMS are still dealing with an issue for me, multiple signals changing down the line but it is above the layout, a software issue.

HRMS may intervene they have said they are working on 3rd party products but couldn't give any idea of time scale. 

Don't worry you cannot help with this problem Ray, and thank you, just wait till I start with programming  ;o)

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

Although I am receiving help from Signalist, we are not doing very well at getting the SC1 set with Lenz LS100 decoder to work.

It is pointless listing everything I had done on here, hopefully we will get the signals to work with the SC1 and then I can confirm the order we did to get it to work.

We cannot read the CV's to see them but can write CV's to the SC1 this was not a surprise. But, one thing that has come to light is, when writing to the SC1 it will go through the process as it does when writing CV's to locos but will confirm error when it has done so. I have been told, so long as the signal is attached, which it is, if the signal lights flash when it is writing to the SC1 it has written to the card even though I get an error writing.

Very frustrating, Signalist are thinking on JMRI procedures and not Hornby RailMaster, as they do not have knowledge of its workings, at this stage they do not understand the Seq, Port, Settings in the signal set up section which are automatic when HRMS have set up the driver in the list of options. They are also expecting setting the signals and the points to work together, I have explained where the signal is set up and where we set up points and signals separately in the same area of the software.

I am at a stand still and feel I have gone several steps backwards. HRMS can you help please?

PJ 

[idlemarvel]

Do you have an elite PJ, sometimes they can read CVs from "inert" decoders that elink can't.

[idlemarvel]

PJ I think you said in an earlier posting that signalist had installed railmaster i order to test SC1 but it was an old version without multi-aspect signal support; I presume they know they can upgrade to the latest version even if they are in evaluation mode, by downloading rm_setup.exe from www.powerpos.com/rail-master/rm_setup.exe?

[St1ngr4y]

PJ,

The reason that you are getting "Confirm failed" is because to do the confirmation, RM will try to read back in the CV it has just written. But it seems to me that RM generally has a problem reading CVs from this decoder. If you assume the CVs have written ok, does the signal then still not work operationally?

Sorry, Dave, my post has sent your posts to the previous page. PJ, don't miss Dave's last two posts.

Ray

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi Dave

No just the eLink.

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi Dave

Thanks for this, I will inform CR Signals and Signalist.

They do have the latest RM Guide now

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi Ray

It still doesn't work?

I have just received this message from Signalist

Hi
 
Up to version 1.55 (and 1.56 without the propack) the SC1 works perfectly with Railmaster when treated as a Lenz LS100 as you will find when you try to configure the other signals you have purchased. The only configuration is to set the address which can be done easily with the PGM jumper - everything else is preconfigured.
 
I think you are right and I will have to ask the developers on the forum. If you try some of the things I asked you in the previous email there is a good chance we can get the signals working by getting an insight in to how the Hornby Railmaster system works by mapping left and right commands and red and green commands to normal and reverse commands for instance and work out which Seq. numbers map to which signal aspects. I am quite happy to install and evaluate the Hornby software but the version you are using (pro-pack) does not appear to be available for evaluation.
 
I am sure that we will have your signals running soon if you work with me and try the things I am suggesting.
 
Rgds
Paul

 

I think from my point of vew all I can do is...

CV8=8 to the SC1 to set it back to default and try again.

Update Signalist and this forum with the outcome and see where we go from there.

I will ask Signalist what works perfectly following the above message. The decoder may work with signals that are two aspect and route indicator but does it work with 3 and 4 aspect with feathers?

Thanks everyone for your help

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

UPDATE

Reply from Signalist when I asked does the Lenz LS100 work fine just with 2 aspect signals.....

 

I downloaded from the link but it does not appear to have the Pro-Pack add on so no 3-aspect signals.

 

The LS100 setting will work with 2-aspect signals, which is fine for Railmaster with or without the Pro-Pack.

 

In other words they cannot test the 3 Aspect or 4 Aspect with route indicators! They are hopeful we can get it to work using the Lenz decoder. I provided a suggested procedure list last night, based on what has been tried or suggested so far, and they have replied, so once Formula 1 Qualifying has been on TV today, 11.15 to 14.30 I think,  I will get started and will provide an update once I have done so.

 

PJ