CR Signals - signals with route indicators and sidings signals

[PJ_model_trains]

UPDATE

Connect to PROG, no jumpers

CV38=9 now written to SC1 

Signals in RM layout plan all Green, reconnect SC1 to eLink/DCC Bus

TESTING 

CV173 Signal settings = 1 - 173 = G  & 2 - 173 R

CV173 = R screen - Green signal

CV173 = G screen - Red signal

 

CV174 Signal settings = 1 - 174 = G  & 2 - 174 R

CV174 = R screen - Yellow signal

CV174 = G screen - Red signal

 

CV175 Signal settings = 1 - 175 = G  & 2 - 175 R

CV175 = R screen - Feather on when signals yellow or green

CV175 = G screen - Feather off

  

CHANGE 0173 IN SIGNAL SETTINGS  

from 1 - 173 =R to Green and from 2 - 173 G to Red

 

CV173 = R screen - Red signal

CV173 = G screen - Green signal

 

CV174 Signal settings = 1 - 174 = G  & 2 - 174 R

CV174 = R screen - Yellow signal

CV174 = G screen - Red signal

 

CV175 Signal settings = 1 - 175 = G  & 2 - 175 R

CV175 = R screen - Feather on when signals yellow or green

CV175 = G screen - Feather off

 

If 173 is G and 175 R --- signal = G on and feather on

If 173 is R feather off in both positions

 

If 174 is Y and 175 R --- signal = Y on and feather on

If 174 is R feather off both positions

 

If 174 is Y --- 173 doesn't change to red or to green

PJ

[St1ngr4y]

PJ,

I think the signal is working as described in the manual.

Let's ignore the feather for the time being, and concentrate on addresses 173 & 174....

The aspect shown at any time on the actual signal will depend on the combination of red & green shown on both icons 173 & 174 as follows:-

173 R 174 R -  signal should show R

173 R 174 G -  signal should show Y

173 G 174 G -  signal should show Y

173 G 174 R -  signal should show G

So, set both icons to R. Now starting with 174 alternately click each icon. This should step it through the sequence from R to Y to G. The only time when nothing will happen is when the actual signal is showing Y and you click 173. This is where, if it had been a 4-aspect signal, it would change to double yellow.

Ray

[PJ_model_trains]

Hello Ray

All working as you have stated for 2x 2 aspect signals 173 & 174

PJ

[St1ngr4y]

So far so good - let's try something new ....

Create a new signal icon on the layout and configure it as a Traintech 4-aspect (no feather for time being) with a base address of 173. I don't think you need to delete any of the three existing icons.

Configure the sequence as ...

1   0174 Green

2   0173 Green

3   0174 Red

4   0173 Red

See if it will step through a sequence by repeated clicking of the icon.

Ray

[PJ_model_trains]

Hello Ray

Almost!

Red = Red signal

Yellow = Yellow signal

Yellow/Yellow = stays Yellow only

Green = Green

Feather is lit for all except the Red

PJ

[St1ngr4y]

Sorry for delay - been watching footy.

This is where I'm running out of ideas. If you configure it as a 3-aspect signal, that means there should be 3 items in the sequence. But to switch from yellow to green, BOTH of the addresses 173 and 174 need to be changed at the same time. How can this be done with one sequence item.

Also, I can't imagine how you would configure the feather using the configuration parameters provided in the layout designer.

I'll be back in 45 minutes!

Ray

[PJ_model_trains]

Hello Ray

Don't feel obliged to rush back, enjoy your footie, tea, or what ever you are doing. I will just keep checking back to see if there is an update.

I am grateful for everyones help, Paul and yourself, HRMS, etc.

Looking back there have been a number of problems, I will put myself top of the list!

Writing 0174 (initially) to SC1 in learn mode.

Then writing CV's whilst still in learn mode not knowing learn mode should not be on as it is only for this only writing the address

Not disconnecting the SC1 when adding the jumper then adding it back afterwards.

Looking how to read CV's for decoders in decoder accessories.

Trying to work out how to see CV's for a decoder in the lomotive section.

Trying to read CV when it is not possible

Writing CV's and wondering if they had done so.

All in all a nest of issues adding to my lack of knowledge. It's what makes the... head go round  ;o)

But, we are getting there, I will have a play and see if I 'stumble' on an answer.

There are some really knowledgeable and helpful guys on this forum. Thank you

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi Ray

I have the 3x 2 aspect signals 173, 174, 175

I have the 1x 4 aspect signal 173

and have added

1x 3 aspect with RH feather  173

Each work if clicked and don't affect the others.

RESULT for 4 aspect (as above)

Red = Red signal

Yellow = Yellow signal

Yellow/Yellow = stays Yellow only

Green = Green

Feather is lit for all except the Red

RESULT for 3 aspect with feather - SAME Except

When on Yellow it remains Yellow for the third click

PJ

[St1ngr4y]

Hi PJ,

So for the 3-aspect I assume you kept the same 4-step sequence as the for 4-aspect. This makes sense. I think now we need HRMS to examine your results, and to suggest a way of configuring to allow the feather to be swiched using address 175. 

It looks like the logic of the decoder correctly prevents the feather from showing when the main signal is showing red.

Ray

[St1ngr4y]

Another thing I have been meaning to comment on is the way they have decided to allow the user to control a multi-aspect signal in RM. What I mean is that it is restricting the user to the repeated clicking of the icon to make the signal step through the sequence. This was my gripe with the Traintronics signal where you only have one port address and you need to send it repeated "clear"  commands to make it step through the sequence. Neither of these scenarios are any good if you have a 4-aspect signal showing yellow, a train passes it, and you want it to change to red. On the layout diagram you would need to click the icon three times, switching it to yy, g, then red.

To achieve full control, you would need to have 4 buttons on the icon, one for each aspect, and perhaps make the feather into a button for toggling that on and off. You could even have the coloured lights on the icon to be the controlling buttons. the top yellow being for yy and the bottom one for y.

Ray

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi Ray

I kept the same steps.

The only item different to what you said was, I didn't set the decoder to Train-Tech, I set it to Lenz LS100 as recommended by Signalist.

Thanks for your help.

Lets hope HRMS see we have tried (you have tried) and are almost there. Their knowledge and experience in these matters is so important and valued

Thank you again Ray I appreciate your help.

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

What I think helps with this issue is, Ray tested using Train-Tech decoder, I tested using SC1 decoder and we both had the same results. So both decoders (once CV's are set) appear to work the same way so testing with one should hopefully give the same results as the other.

I think 

PJ

[St1ngr4y]

Good morning PJ,

Last night I had a Eureka moment ! But this morning I tested my theory and was only 50% successful. I have thought of a way of controlling the feather on your signal.

All you need to do is to have two icons on your track diagram, both configured with a base address of 173. One of them will be 3-aspect with feather, the other will be 3-aspect no feather.

The first one with feather will have only a two item sequence

1 175 Green

2 175 Red

The second one without feather will have

1 174 Green

2 173 Green

3 174 Red

4 173 Red

At this point I was going to suggest the clever bit, which was to drag the non-feather icon on top of the feather icon, so that clicking the main body of the signal would change the colour aspects, and clicking the feather which would have been protruding from underneath, would toggle the feather. Unfortunately clicking the icon in the feather bit doesn't work, so the best result is to have the two icons side by side.

I was also going to suggest setting up a point on your diagram - give it any address other than 173-178 - and in the "other point/signal" link it to signal 175 (the feather). I tried this on my traintronics signal without success, but maybe you could try it?

Ray

[PJ_model_trains]

Good morning

I too tried the sequence of precise clicking of aspects within the signal and the feather to see if the feather turned on and off, I too was disappointed.

I also set up points to change with the signals and the points do change, if G points straight for main line, I also tried if Y branch to test both They work it is just the signals that are not in sequence as they should be.

I have tried routine after routine and get no where, sometime a few more clicks in between that do nothing, but no nearer forward.  I am banging my head against a wall and know which is the hardest   )o:

I looked at the RM Guide (again) and even put in routes, main line and branch line to test as they too had the red and green buttons, no luck.

The Guide says...

This powerful feature allows you to set up almost any type of multi-aspect signal, whether connected to multiple ports of an Accessory Decoder.....  Sounds good but how?

RailMaster contains pre-defined profiles for Train-tech signals. These profiles will also work for signals attached to an accessory decoder, if wired correctly..... we know the wiring is correct.

You can also set up your own profiles for multi -aspect colour light signals from two-aspect, three-aspect, four-aspect including those with flashing lights and feather route indicators. Simply selecting the type of multi -aspect signal you have from the pull-down list will automatically fill in the sequence..... The list doesn't automativcally fill in the sequence???

There are up to 13 sequences for each signal and you can see for the most complex example, a four-aspect colour light signal with flashing lights, that four separate decoder ports are used to obtain the sequence: green, red, twoyellow, single-yellow, green flashing, two-yellow flashing, single yellow flashing and red. You can set any desired sequence, in any order using this system..... What are these 13 sequences for each signal?  Could this give us the help we need, a bigger picture of how it works or how it will help us make it work?

13 sequences for each signal? Or up to 13 sequences for signals of 2, 3, 4 aspect, feathers and flashing lights with the more complex using up to or all of them?

Is it me? Am I missing something here?

There has to be a pattern, a table of events, a spead sheet of options available and how one action affects another. 

HRMS please tell us more.

PJ

[St1ngr4y]

PJ,

I managed to hide the feather icon behind the non-feathered one. If you drag the non-feather over the feather, leaving a small part of the top of the lower main signal in view as well as the feather, there is just enough of it to click while at 100% zoom or >.

Did you configure the points to change the feather or the feather to change the points?

Ray

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi Ray

No, I was trying something else. --- I did try testing points to signals but not to the feather signal

A Test not a Solution

Strangely we are both trying almost the same thng  ;o)

Instead of trying a 4 aspect signal I tried the following.

A 3 aspect (no feather) + a 2 aspect with feather

3 Aspect to control 3 aspect signal, 2 aspect to control feather

173 for 3 aspect

Set 174 =G, 173 = G, 174 = R, 173 = R

175 for 2 aspect

Set 175 = R, 175 = G to turn feather on and off

Result Signal Red = Red, Yellow = Yellow, Click (nothing), Green = Green

Feather - Green = On, Red = Off (only on Yellow and Green)

I tried to hide one behind the other (as I see you have also tried) but the last one goes on top so I changed it to 2 aspect set up then 3 aspect set up this way the three goes on top of the two. I also found out you couldn't switch the feather on and off unless you left a little of the 2 aspect signal body showing, just enough to click it.

This means the feather on 175 is 175 = Red, 175 is Green. Red being OFF and Green being ON

But the 3 aspect needs sorting now and I haven't managed that yet.

We have as last night Set 174 =G, 173 = G, 174 = R, 173 = R

But, this operates as follows. 

Click Red = Red OK for 3 aspect home no feather

Click Yellow = Yellow OK (ditto)

Click - NOTHING so this is not right

Click Green = Green OK for 3 aspect home no feather

We have tried a 4 Aspect, we have tried 3 x 2 aspect to work out the pattern of switching to signal colours. I now we work out the 3 aspect, we know the feather is right then we should have all the bits and may be then try add them back into a 3 aspect and feather. We just need to get rid of the click that does nothing, we thought was expecting the yellow/yellow on the 4 aspect but still happens on the 3 aspect. Hope that makes sense.

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi Ray

Note: Although the above works as stated the feather stops ON when signal is moved to RED as they are two separate signals being Tested to work out switch pattern and colours.

PJ

[St1ngr4y]

PJ,

With the RM software not yet adjusted for these signals, what we are doing is a fudge. The NOTHING click is the best we can do at the moment. The reason is that to switch from single yellow to green requires TWO messages to be sent to the signal i.e. 173 clear and 174 stop. The NOTHING click causes RM to send 173 Clear. On a 4-aspect signal this would result in double yellow, but on a 3-aspect just single yellow. So you perceive that nothing has happened because it stays on single yellow. The next click then sends 174 Stop which completes the transition to green.

With the overlapping of icons, try positioning the upper one so that you cover all but the top two lights of the feather. This will bring into view at the bottom a second white rectangular box. Clicking on this will toggle the feather, clicking the upper white box or the colour aspects will change the colours.

If you go back to having two 3-aspect icons, both with base address 173, one with feather and one without, this should get around the problem of the feather staying on on red aspect.

Ray

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi Ray

I have Red, Yellow, (miss), Green on 173 signal 3 aspect no feather, 

address 174 Green, 173 green, 174 red, 174 green

I have feather on feather off on 173 signal 3 aspect with feather,

address 175 Red, 175 Green

As the second signal is separate it doesn't change the feather on red

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi Ray

I have now found time to test the feather to points

If feather ON branch right

If feather OFF main line

Works fine

PJ

[St1ngr4y]

Hi PJ,

So the feather is changing the points, rather than the other way around?

Ray

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi Ray

No point in signal changing points as the feather is the directional indicator. When they are one, signal and feather, it will be controlled from one icon, meanwhile...

If feather ON go right (on RH feather) if feather OFF main line as per colour of signal with it.

Feather ON with Yellow - proceed with caution in direction of route indicator

Feather ON with Green - proceed in direction of route indicator

As I see it, the route indicator dictates the direction when lit, the colour signal dictates how the engine driver should proceed.

PJ

[St1ngr4y]

Hi PJ,

You misunderstand my reason for asking. I understand what the feather's job is. What I was thinking is if you configure the point to change the feather to indicate which way the point is switched, then you may be able to get away with one icon for the signal - 3-aspect with feather, and the sequence being the colour changes.

All that depends, of course, whether RM will (a) change the feather as a result of changing the point and (b) if it does, will it reflect the feather change on the layout diagram.

Ray

[PJ_model_trains]

Hello Ray

CR Signals and Signalist have been given the email address to contact Hornby support.

I understand Paul from Signalist will act for the two companies and will arrange to send signals and SC1 to Hornby.

Hornby have said they need to set up a signal and decoder and test them to find a solution.

Meanwhile, thank you for your help, I did try setting the point to change the feather but didn't have much luck. I have the two signal icons slightly over lapping as we have discussed it will do for now. I can run trains, except for one set of points to re-wire when I have the board uplifted. It will do for now.

I will play with signals and point set up and even though the 4x 4 aspect signals don't work correcty yet I can get everything else ready or improved, no doubt setting routes etc will change some things but at present only R & G signal lights are incorrect from memory. G, Y, YY, R.  I am not to worried as loco detection will change things by automating the Red as a train passes and altering previous signals as the end of it ot ast carriage passes.

They say signalling can be a bit of a nightmare, trains going left or clockwise whilst back signals go right or anti clockwise. Then add two way track and signals the other way  ;o)  

Once the signals are working as they should be the fun will start.

Meanwhile I have set up signals and points from the 3 platforms in the middle to open every point as needed, alter every signal so only one had the open line and alter signals where it branches on to the by-pass line and just before one of the main lines. One click on a signal from the appropriate station sets them all.  I think you have been doing similar Ray haven't you, coming from sidings or fiddle yard?

I must get a bit further on with signalling and hope Hornby fix the two issues I have at present then start to play with routes. I have 34 signals on the RM layout, 17 on the actual layout when I get these last 4 on and only 3 more to purchase.  There will be around a dozen dummy signals where I only see the backs of them. 

Witha bit of a look I will have a TTS Sound loco for Christmas  ;-)

PJ

[St1ngr4y]

Ok PJ. I'll post if I hear anything from HRMS about the outstanding issues I have with Traintech signals.

Ray