Loco Detection

[rpjallan]

With all the interest in the Loco Detection Availability thread, I'm wondering what everyones hopes and expectations are for loco detection. How are you intending, or hoping, to use it on your layout?

With the size of my layout, I'm baffled to see what it really will be able to do for me other than change a signal when a train passes.

So, what creative ideas are there?

[ModelerXYZ]

I want it to tell me when a train is hidden in the tunnel at the back of my layout.

[GWR Greg]

I want to able to stop the train at the same point at the station each time.

[Yelrow]

Surely  you can programme railmaster to do that now, or am i missing something. john

[96RAF]

Surely  you can programme railmaster to do that now, or am i missing something. john

 

You can tell it when to stop at present John, where it stops is always in the lap of the gods. I would much prefer to be able to stop on a mark each and every time.

LD - wish list - All I want to know is which loco/train is where and through linked actions be able to control what happens when it gets there. After that I would also like to be able to initiate another loco/train persuant from any such linked action. At present working signals are not on my horizon but thats not to say LD shouldn't be fully capable in those areas so well done the likes of PJ in pushing those fixes forward with HRMS.

[MetmanUK]

Good morning John,

Inside your PC you have lots of programs running, some you can see, most you can't.  Although you have some control over when the programs run and what they do, ultimately the PC shares resources, including processing time.

Computer programs can be single or multi-threaded.  In tha latter case this means you can set tasks running concurrently.  Similarly although you have some control, the PC has ultimate control.

Why does this matter ?  If you try to use a PC to 'run' a process then the elapsed running time will inevitably be variable/unpredictable.

Now consider a simple large oval track with a stattion.  Use your knowledge of the oval to start from the station, go around the loop, then stop at the station, each segment occuring for exactly the same length of time and same control settings.  This may well work for the first few times but inevitably slight changes in run time (errors) will creep in.  As the process is repeated, errors will increase.

Putting this all together, expecting RM to produce a predictable result, time after time, will only end in tears.  LD is a way of providing reference points to RM, enabling errors to be corrected before they escalate.  No more, no less.

[Yelrow]

Metman, hi, thanks for that, but i worked for Btirish Rail for 22 years, and i barely ever remember Steam Trains, stopping at the same point on the platform. And here in france, it is the same with the TGV. Ok, its only a foot or two, but they do vary. So, as RAF says, if we want them to stop on the same mark, each time, that in effect, is not reality.Taking that to the next step, LR apart, it is the loco speed, surely which ultimately, defines where it stops. Some of my DCC locos, stop really well, while others dont, and if you set 3 at same speed then tried to stop them at a certain point, as you say, there would be a variance.. .I wont mention signals, as they are already on chapter 9, in another post, but by the time you have bought the pro pack, plus LD, i cannot see at present, the end justifying the means.  Am i being a bit simplistic. john

[St1ngr4y]

I want it to tell me when a train is hidden in the tunnel at the back of my layout.

From the speculation about how the system will work, I don't think it will do this for you. The suggestion is that it will work by a unique bar-code being attached to the underside of a loco or carriage, and for a sensor to detect when that loco passes over it. This split-second event is reported to the Railmaster software, with which you will be given several optional actions which it will carry out for you.

It sounds like you want it to be able to constantly sense the presence of a train which is stopped in your tunnel.

Ray

[MetmanUK]

You are not being too simplistic, John, but you are forgetting that in the real world the reference point is provided by the driver or with manual control, the operator (you!).

[MetmanUK]

I want it to tell me when a train is hidden in the tunnel at the back of my layout.

From the speculation about how the system will work, I don't think it will do this for you. The suggestion is that it will work by a unique bar-code being attached to the underside of a loco or carriage, and for a sensor to detect when that loco passes over it. This split-second event is reported to the Railmaster software, with which you will be given several optional actions which it will carry out for you.

It sounds like you want it to be able to constantly sense the presence of a train which is stopped in your tunnel.

Ray

Correct.  With my 'reference point' analagy you would need LD every few millimetres to replicate a driver or operator.  This is clearly impractical so we will have to go with what is practical and affordable !  Anything that happens unexpectedly between reference (LD) points will be unseen until the effect is seen at the next reference point (providing it is reached).

[St1ngr4y]

Metman, hi, thanks for that, but i worked for Btirish Rail for 22 years, and i barely ever remember Steam Trains, stopping at the same point on the platform. And here in france, it is the same with the TGV. Ok, its only a foot or two, but they do vary. So, as RAF says, if we want them to stop on the same mark, each time, that in effect, is not reality.Taking that to the next step, LR apart, it is the loco speed, surely which ultimately, defines where it stops. Some of my DCC locos, stop really well, while others dont, and if you set 3 at same speed then tried to stop them at a certain point, as you say, there would be a variance.. .I wont mention signals, as they are already on chapter 9, in another post, but by the time you have bought the pro pack, plus LD, i cannot see at present, the end justifying the means.  Am i being a bit simplistic. john

Good morning John,

When a program is created to, for example, drive a train around the layout, then decelerate and stop at a station, the accuracy of this depends on the distance travelled. In my case, the layout is in the attic, and trains can run a fair distance before beginning the deceleration process. The same loco can behave differently on different days. For example, I find that the temperature can effect the speed of a loco. 

However, if there is a LD sensor near the approach to the station, at which the deceleration could be triggered, then it won't matter how fast the train was going before this point - the time and distance of the deceleration process will be much more consistent, and the accuracy of the station stop will be much greater.

Ray

[PJ_model_trains]

I want it to tell me when a train is hidden in the tunnel at the back of my layout.

 

Hi Modeler

 

Loco Detection will not tell you were any train is.  Your RM screen will look exactly the same except for the blue squares showing where your detectors are.

 

You are still the engine driver. You will know where your trains are.

 

What loco Detection is designed to do is... recognise when a train, tender or carriage goes over a sensor and then carry out commands you have pre-programmed into the sensors.

 

Open RM

 

Click the triangle icon at top of the screen

 

In the drop down menu bottom of the new screen choose and open your track plan

 

Click the Red/Green arrows icon left hand side of screen

 

Click the dark coloured box (Loco Detection icon) and add it to your layout (anywhere for now)

 

Next right click this box you will see a white area in the box that pops up

 

Click the top left hand corner of this box a drop down menu will appear

 

These are the commands you will see that you will be able to set in each sensor. I have listed them below

 

For reference

 

The NEW list of commands is now.....

 

On signal green

On signal red

On signal yellow

On signal double yellow

On signal Flash Yellow

On signal Flash double

On signal Flash Green

For loco(s)

For train types(s)

For forward direction

For reverse direction

For any direction

Stop loco

Stop loco on signal

Resume loco on signal

Reduce loco speed to

Increase loco speed to

Set to cruise speed

Switch right point

Switch left point

Set clear signal

Set danger signal

Activate loco function

Play sound file

Run program file

 

I do think there should be commands for, hopefully Hornby will consider these

Set proceed caution 

Set proceed extra caution 

 

Red and Green (bold) is include above but not Y proceed with caution or YY proceed with extra caution

 

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

I want to able to stop the train at the same point at the station each time.

 

Hi GWR Greg

 

Loco Detection will be a big help for this. Subject of course to the speed of the train when it is told to stop.

 

I would expect to use LD for amny things, one is reducing speed at a previous sensor, may be coming in to a station or siding, maybe because the signal just past was Y, meaning at that time the next wil be R. I feel by lowering my speed and knowing the stopping distance of my trains I will get them to stop where I want them to.

 

Every time.

 

PJ 

[PJ_model_trains]

Surely  you can programme railmaster to do that now, or am i missing something. john

Hello John

Not with the same degree of accuracy.

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

Surely  you can programme railmaster to do that now, or am i missing something. john

 

You can tell it when to stop at present John, where it stops is always in the lap of the gods.

 

Well said RAF

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

So, as RAF says, if we want them to stop on the same mark, each time, that in effect, is not reality.

 

Taking that to the next step, LR apart, it is the loco speed, surely which ultimately, defines where it stops.

 

Some of my DCC locos, stop really well, while others dont, and if you set 3 at same speed then tried to stop them at a certain point, as you say, there would be a variance.. .

 

john

 

Hello John

 

Comment 1 above - RAF is referring to the situation in RM now. It will be more accuarte with LD

 

Comment 2 above - I covered this in a comment earlier. Yes you are totally correct, the stopping distance is subject to the train, this too was discussed recently in detail between my CoN and DoG also my Royal Signals. We need to test and calibrate them. Having said that you may choose not to then all you have to do is know the stopping distance for yoour trains.

 

Comment3 above - So for example Train 1 takes longer to stop than train 2 so one sensor back down the line you may reduce the speed of Train 1 to 25 mph but train 2 to 30mph. We can tweak these so that when then pass over the sensor  that says stop it stops where we want.

 

Has Metman said, RM has to many things happening so does your computer, these can affect the stopping also. With LD there are instructions we can program...

'On signal red' STOP to make the train stop, or

'Stop loco'

.

PJ

[Yelrow]

Ray, hi, thanks for that. Its a lot of setting up, cost and fiddling to ensure the train stops on a sixpence, whereas in real life, 7 or8 pence is very acceptable. How many times have we had to pick up our luggage and  go back, 6 foot, or forward 6 foot.  Its quite fun with kids, forcasting actual stop position. On PJs point, i dont think the TGV driver, talks to his train, and says, stop, or the french equivilent. If temperature is also going to affect LR, then here, where it goes from  minus 15, to 107, will certainly see a difference, despite set up. You and PJ, with your signal conversations, leave most of us  behind. but if the only positive thing LD will do so far is stop the train at a station, then many of us can do without. I would like a simple,  list in words of  simplicity, being a person that has NO Intention of going into signals. what i would gain for paying out a lot of money, as opposed to what i have now. EG, pros and cons. john

[PJ_model_trains]

but if the only positive thing LD will do so far is stop the train at a station, then many of us can do without. I would like a simple,  list in words of  simplicity, being a person that has NO Intention of going into signals. what i would gain for paying out a lot of money, as opposed to what i have now. EG, pros and cons. john

 

Hi John

List of commands to program LD sensors can be seen above, hows that for a start  ;-)

PJ

[Fishmanoz]

John and rpja (who seems to have been ignored in the last page or so, even though he started this), if all you are going to do is use the throttles on the RM screen to run your trains around, LD will do precisely nothing for you.  Except read below in my fourth para.

 

It is only when you start writing programs to run your trains for you that LD comes into its own.  If you want to do something simple over and over again, LD will allow you to do it.  Take something like running a train down an end-to-end layout, stopping at the station, decoupling the loco and putting it at the other end of the train and running back.  If you write a program to do that, the train will very quickly end up somewhere other than where you thought due to variations in distance over time (unless you run it into the buffers each time) and the program won't work.  With LD, you can check where it is each run.

 

if you want to run a number of locos under program control and have them do different things at different points on the layout, LD will allow you to do it. It identifies which loco has just passed over its sensors and can then do things just for that loco, or a group of locos, or just your steam locos and not your diesels. Or vice versa.  In fact, once your loco is detected, LD can run an entire other program you have already written.  So it can allow you to do some quite complex stuff with the programs you develop to run your layout, stuff not possible without.

 

Now I said without programming, LD will do precisely nothing, but that isn't quite true.  Say you are manually going to run 4-5 locos at once and some of that running is going to be some complicated shunting on one part of your layout while your express and your local are doing their own thing elsewhere.  But you need to check them from time to time to make sure they aren't about to crash into each other.  Well you could have LD slow them down at various positions on your layout while you do that checking, then speed them up again to be on their way.

 

So there are 3 sample LD scenarios for you, 2 with programming and 1 without, all of which would be difficult or impossible without LD and simple with.  Whether any of that is of value to you and at what price, only you can decide.  And I haven't even mentioned signalling.

[37lover]

Fishmanoz,

Thanks for your posting @ 21:19:36; your third para is what interests me and having programmes for semi-automated runs of several trains simultaneously will be amazing, signalling is a cost too far [at the moment]. So I'm frustrated at the continued delay sorting out signalling problems [and I'm sure I'm not the only one] but that's Hornby's right.

[rpjallan]

Thanks for all your replies. One thing that I think loco detection would be most useful for is for setting routes. But I can't see that it will be able to do that without running a program.

[Fishmanoz]

Not just set routes rpja, but run conditional routes, conditional on what loco, what signal etc.  But only under programs as you suspected. 

[rpjallan]

So, if I have a train waiting in a station, using Loco Detection, how do I get the train to move off when the starter signal is cleared?

Also, it's not actually possible for a program to run a route, is it?

[St1ngr4y]

So, if I have a train waiting in a station, using Loco Detection, how do I get the train to move off when the starter signal is cleared?

Also, it's not actually possible for a program to run a route, is it?

You can configure the signal to run a program. However, ONLY ONE program, which will of course be tailored for ONE locomotive. LD can't do it for you, unless you use another sensor, triggered by a different loco.

Ray

[PJ_model_trains]

So, if I have a train waiting in a station, using Loco Detection, how do I get the train to move off when the starter signal is cleared?

Also, it's not actually possible for a program to run a route, is it?

You can configure the signal to run a program. However, ONLY ONE program, which will of course be tailored for ONE locomotive. LD can't do it for you, unless you use another sensor, triggered by a different loco.

Ray

 

Programs allow us to do much more, with programs you can tell each signal 1 by 1 the aspect you want it to show as trains and tenders/carriages pass as well as run your trains, make sounds, etc, etc.

 

But, you are driving your trains, if a train stops at a red signal it is you or a program as Ray says that re-starts it again. The thing you will need to be careful with is a program is a sequence of events to a time schedule, if a train is forced to stop at a Red signal this will affect the timing in the program. Even using another sensor to trigger your train to start can mean the timings are out on your initial program.

 

Possibly an answer to this is not run a train from Siding A to station B but, to run the train in smaller programs, e.g. out of the siding to a first signal. Then use another program to run it from that position to the station B or to the next signal. This could have a better chance of working than a full A to B journey in a program.

 

PJ