RailMaster - Train-Tech Signals - Discussion

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi all

 

I have included below an image captured from RM track design file

called 'Train-tech Signals' from download v1.59 Rev2

 

/media/tinymce_upload/Train_tech_Signals_file_4x4.jpg

From the image what would your answer be to the following?

 

1 - Which way do you think the train will be travelling, left to right or right to left?

2 - Why do you think this? 

[PJ_model_trains]

There was an image in the first message it is awaiting approval.

That was quick, thank you HRMS

[96RAF]

Based on the time line train is travelling right to left.

If time zero was when the loco passed over each sensor, then the signals are indicating these 'blocks' are clear for the next train and have been for the time shown minus block clearance time (not known as it would probably depend upon the length of the block).

There again if they are just sensor IDs then its anybody's guess until a time event is known or the lights change to give some indication of passing sensor event(s).

[RB51]

Although I don't have this type of signal I follow this thread with keen interest. Can I ask though RAF96 - what time line? The numbers below the track are DCC ID's aren't they? I feel as though I am missing something (yes, I know, not for the first time). However I agree with you based on the ID's I would say R > L. Probably wrong. R-

[St1ngr4y]

Hello Guys,

I'm going to play devil's advocate (not for the first time :-)) and say left to right, if it is a British line. This is so the signals will be on the train driver's left.

Ray

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi guys

 

I am pleased to hear a few responses and hopefully with more examples others will join in also.

 

It is good also that every answer is based on, as requested the image supplied not the file which I also included.

 

Roger you are right, those are actual port ID'

 

RAF thank you for picking up on the clear 'blocks' which mean they are unoccupied blocks so they at this stage do not give any indication of train travel.

 

Ray you hit the number one item, (I think) the only item to tell us at this stage which way to expect a train to travel on this example, please correct me at any stage if I say anything incorrect.

 

 

Now look at the code in the layout file mentioned 'Train-tech Signals' and let me know which direction you feel the train is travelling. left to right or right to left?  

My file was from powerpos download v1.59 Rev2

 

You may find it helpful to load the layout track and click the various signals to help you decide.

 

PJ

[St1ngr4y]

Hi PJ,

Before your post, I only had 1.59 Rev 1 loaded, so I checked this out before downloading Rev 2. There is a difference between the two Rev's. In Rev 1, only signal 30 had any "Other point/signal" settings. In Rev 2, signals 25 and 20 have settings, and signal 30's settings are the same in both Rev's.

To answer your original question, definitely looks like they are configured for right to left direction of travel.

I have a few questions however...

1. (nothing to do with "Other point/signals") why is signal 30's sequence (the central table in the settings) different to the other three signals? The other three are 1 red 2 green 3 red 4 green.

2. Why do they have so many settings in the "Other point/signals" config. Some settings seem to me to be changing signals further back to green when they are already green.

Ray

[96RAF]

OK PJ

I missed the fact I should be loading RM and looking at the subject file-plan. If al else fails read the instructions - first rule of anything.

The reason I called timeline was my first impression looking at the figure. Second impression was they were obviously (or not so obviously) sensor or signal IDs.

I missed the left hand drive signal orientation. I obviously missed that lesson at the school of spotting the bl**ming obvious.

Train pc is shut down until tomorrow so NFA until then.

I watch with interest.

[PJ_model_trains]

I will be back  ;o)

 

11.22 I opened a teamviewer support, 16.56 I got together with HRMS, they have had a busy day, but I sat by my computer patiently all the time, except for the odd hobble around it but I am restricted what I can do at present, sides off, signals on codes to match HRMS not mine etc. It is now 19.05 and we have just concluded for today the signal issues, HRMS late home again today!

 

I raised the above as a starter to get people talking and others learning, it has got us talking alright.

 

I will look at the comments later. After over two hours and I must say HRMS were very good and helpful, we still haven't solved the fault. It was another of those where I felt I had everything correct, they felt I had something wrong but I was open to discussion and it concluded, I haven't got anything wrong but they haven't found a fix either. It now points possibly to a signal problem but this will take time. One way or another we worked together, I listened and did everything asked even though it felt a one line track at first, and full credit to HRMS, he then listened to my explanation and we tried more tests together but sadly we didn't get the finish card yet.

 

I will try get back tonight but an cream crackered so it may be tomorrow.

 

Thanks everyone for your input we have a lot to discusss loking at the comments etc   ;o)

 

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

OK PJ

I missed the fact I should be loading RM and looking at the subject file-plan. If al else fails read the instructions - first rule of anything.

The reason I called timeline was my first impression looking at the figure. Second impression was they were obviously (or not so obviously) sensor or signal IDs.

I missed the left hand drive signal orientation. I obviously missed that lesson at the school of spotting the bl**ming obvious.

Train pc is shut down until tomorrow so NFA until then.

I watch with interest.

 

Don't apologise it is not a probem.

The first question was from the image, I didn't really want anyone to open the file at that stage.

The aim was to view an image and know which way a train would be travelling by an item on it, the signals.

There will be many looking at the comments and learning also, we learn together.

The second invitation was to look at the file which I was careful to confrm which update as I know changes had been made.

Thank you for you input and for watching with interest there is more  ;o)

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi PJ,

Before your post, I only had 1.59 Rev 1 loaded, so I checked this out before downloading Rev 2. There is a difference between the two Rev's. In Rev 1, only signal 30 had any "Other point/signal" settings. In Rev 2, signals 25 and 20 have settings, and signal 30's settings are the same in both Rev's.

To answer your original question, definitely looks like they are configured for right to left direction of travel.

I have a few questions however...

1. (nothing to do with "Other point/signals") why is signal 30's sequence (the central table in the settings) different to the other three signals? The other three are 1 red 2 green 3 red 4 green.

2. Why do they have so many settings in the "Other point/signals" config. Some settings seem to me to be changing signals further back to green when they are already green.

Ray

 

 

Hi Ray

We will chat tomorrow I am goosed and my wife thinks she is a widow.

It is good discussing with you, but it is also  to much for me to get involved with tonight.

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi PJ,

Before your post, I only had 1.59 Rev 1 loaded, so I checked this out before downloading Rev 2. There is a difference between the two Rev's. In Rev 1, only signal 30 had any "Other point/signal" settings. In Rev 2, signals 25 and 20 have settings, and signal 30's settings are the same in both Rev's.

To answer your original question, definitely looks like they are configured for right to left direction of travel.

I have a few questions however...

1. (nothing to do with "Other point/signals") why is signal 30's sequence (the central table in the settings) different to the other three signals? The other three are 1 red 2 green 3 red 4 green.

2. Why do they have so many settings in the "Other point/signals" config. Some settings seem to me to be changing signals further back to green when they are already green.

Ray

 

Good morning Ray

 

After almost a week of flue, still heavy headed yesterday was certainly a challenge. My double vision does help with such small print in the TeamViewer but, ah ho it had to be done the 4 aspect signal situation has certainly dragged on a while.

 

Keeping to your statement and questions first.

 

Yes the signals are programmed for right to left travel, which is contrary to the layout plan with signals above making it appear the train should be travelling left to right. A small issue but to be in the RM Guide it does need Hornby to correct this as it will mis lead new comers to signalling. I will come back to this in another message so as not to have this held up witing for an image.

 

Q1 - why is signal 30's sequence (the central table in the settings) different to the other three signals?

Well picked up, others will see in the signal settings as Ray as put, Signal 30 is set to G, R, R, G and signals 15, 20 & 25 are set to R, G, R,G (in the middle column) Take a look.

 

The reason according to HRMS is that although signals are purchased as 4 aspect signals internally they may be wires differently (reverse polarity) and this can be altered by changing the 4 options from these 2 switches. Switch 1 - R, G changed to G, R instead of R, G like the other three signals suspecting a wrongly wired signal?

 

You may find it interesting that HRMS has  disabled the use of reverse polarity in the signal set up, the tick box is there but does nothing. Why? They maintain, any manufactureers signals can be set by the combination of these switches. (We couldn't get CR Signals signals to work correctly using this switches technique but, it is another subject and I maintained the discussion at present is Train-Tech 4 aspect signals only and their sequence when working with each other)

 

Now if reverse polarity was still working, we could say use that for signal 30 instead of these switches. Fair point but, reverse polarity does it for Red and Green and the Yellow and Double Yellow switch. Meaning that to reverse the signal to get R & G correct would reverse Y & YY incorrectly.

 

I have said I thought there was a bug, HRMS are adamant there is not a bug and it is the signal 30 at fault. More later, that answers your question for the difference.

 

Q2 - It is important at this stage to ensure all signals CAN work in the order they should, R, Y, YY, G (keep Red in for now Ray we know this is separate for the train the sequence working is paramaount to ensuring sequence programming works correctly.)

 

Therefore as a train passes a signal and turns it RED, (for the sequence) the previous should be Y, the one before YY and the one before that G. If this sequence works correctly at this stage we can lessen the sequence and know the system can and is working correctly as it should be able to.  I was really pleased when I turned the straight track to an oval for Hornby to better see the issue and he tested not just the sequence from 15 to 30 with each signal R, Y, YY, G but he also tested each signal one by one through the sequence.  Test it and see.

 

I would suggest you set the track plan in RM, close down and re-start. Something I always do and was pleased to see HRMS do exactly the same... so you start with a clean canvas.

 

We will chat again Ray, may I ask, please feel free to add senarios yourself with questions. I was very pleased at the comments from Roger and RAF and know others are watching and reading. It proved just those little basic issues were were discussing as well as more complex ones. If you do I will not replpy immediately, when I add items I would suggest you don't reply immediately, this way we get peoples thoughts which help in group discussion afterwards rather than a definate answer straight off. 

 

I hope I have answered your questions sufficiently for now.

 

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

UPDATE

Having viewed and discussed the first  example on page one we can conclude the following Train-tech Signals, layout file - v1.59 Rev2 9 Jan 2014

 

/media/tinymce_upload/Train_tech_Signals_file_4x4_TRAIN.jpg

 

Signal on the left of track 'As Train Driver sees them' show the direction a train will come

 

Coding for the signals are from 15 to 30 so do not follow the signals order which can cause confusion especially for beginners

 

If we therefore take the line of 4x 4 aspect signals in a straight line North to South/South to North or as image East to West/West to East we see the pattern we have discussed but... many people have oval tracks so to put the straight as an oval, just literannly taking both ends and joining then we have...

 

IMAGE-A

/media/tinymce_upload/Train-tech_Signals_4x4_OVAL-CW.jpg

OR

IMAGE-B

/media/tinymce_upload/Train-tech_Signals_OVAL-ACW.jpg

 

By now we know the answer but, I will ask it, as this is aimed at helping people just coming into signalling and we can refer them to this as questions arise.

 

Which way is the train travelling in IMAGE-A and in IMAGE-B

[Yelrow]

PJ what address did you type in for revision 2, as the old powerpos is defunct. john

[PJ_model_trains]

PJ what address did you type in for revision 2, as the old powerpos is defunct. john

 

Hello John

Go to www.powerpos.com/rail-master/rm_setup.exe

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi John

Just download from the above link and install

After installing open RM and put your mouse over the small yellow box in the right hand corner, that shows ther version number installed,  it is near the clock. Apologies if you know this, which I think you may, some readers may not.   ;o)

PJ

[choralc]

Image A - CW, Image B - CCW because of the position of the signals in relation to direction of travel being to the left. SO if I did a GW layout would the reverse be true?

[PJ_model_trains]

Thank you again.

 

Some may think, these items are very basic, you are correct but, the idea is to start from basic and together progress to more complicated items so that new comers can pick up very quickly what to look for and how things should work.

 

Yes image A is CW and Image B is ACW or CCW 

 

The key, I think, is...

1 - signals should always be on the left as the train approaches them

2 - look at signalling (speed limit signs etc) as you would if you were the train driveer. You are the train driver so it is right to look at things this way. 

 

If at any stage you see things differently or have another technique please share it, we learn by what we do and share together.

 

Thank you

[PJ_model_trains]

Image A - CW, Image B - CCW because of the position of the signals in relation to direction of travel being to the left. SO if I did a GW layout would the reverse be true?

 

In general we should always look at signals on the left, but some may decide to model a region and time where signals were on the right. Do what is right for you but in general signals on the left has been the method adopted by most, Train-Tech also design all there signals to fit to the left of the track, Hornby prefer Train-Tech signals and have chosen them from the start as they are so easy to program and have built in decoders. On the basic of these two decisions it would be wise, I think, to follow their guidance and plan and design our layouts with signals to the left of the track.

 

Please keep in mind, I like you am learning, I am open to correction at any point, the aim is to create guidance for people coming into the hobby and signalling to learn from our images and conversation together. Your question was important at this stage.

 

Thank you

[PJ_model_trains]

Dear HRMS

 

Please consider the discussion in this thread and consider changes to the Train-Tech signal layout file as discussed above which is also incuded in the manual.

 

It is important, I am sure you will agree, that people reading the manual and viewing the file to learn about signalling, need the right information from the start and for it to  be as clear as it can be.

 

This image shows the conflict between train travelling with signals on the left and train travelling according to the way the signals are programmed.

 

/media/tinymce_upload/Train_tech_Signals_file_4x4_TRAIN1.jpg

 

The following image taken from the file show Train-Tech feather signals. Please note Train-Tech do not make signals with feathers and on discussing this in detail with David from Train-Tech they have no plans to do so but will review the situation again in twelve months. (My discussin with David was in Sept/Oct 2014)

 

It is possible your intention was to show signals with feathers, to show it is possible. David did confirm, they do not make signals with feathers but that other companies signals with feathers will work with one of their decoders.

 

Image below...

 

/media/tinymce_upload/Train_tech_Signals_file_feathers.jpg

 

Thank you for every thing you are doing we really do appreciate it. I include the royal we as I really do believe we all appreciate what you are doing. And to quote a comment by a very helpful and understanding HRMS gentleman few days ago... 'and we have a lot more coming!'

 

Fantastic!

[PJ_model_trains]

 

The image below shows train travel (Signals on the left of the track as seen by the train driver)

 

The reason I have included this image is to clarify a comment on page one, and to show that it doesn't matter which order our Signal Port ID's are set, what matters is each port is programmed according to the direction of travel of the train

(As seen by the engine driver)

 

/media/tinymce_upload/Train_tech_4x4_signals_LR-RL-UD.jpg

 

The signal ports can be anything not already used e.g. 25, 12, 58, 19 although, I think, it is always best to have some sort of structure either every 5 or every 10 steps.

 

Signals are great, they add a third dimension to the track, Train-Tech signals with built in  decoders are easy to install and configure.

[PJ_model_trains]

 

Below is an image of 3 signal types, 2 aspect, 3 aspect and 4 aspect.

 

/media/tinymce_upload/Train-tech_Signals_2A_3A_4A.jpg

 

What are the colour aspect for the signals that are missing, based on the position of the train

Port ID of signal showing

 

Just add in your reply for example

EXAMPLE-1  4, 3, 2, 1 = C, C, C, C

etc

Where C in the example is the colour aspect of the signal in each example.

[PJ_model_trains]

The above being consistent with multiples of 5 should read...

 

Just add in your reply for example

EXAMPLE-1  25, 20, 15, 10 = C, C, C, C

etc

Where C in the example is the colour aspect of the signal in each example.

[PJ_model_trains]

 

Below is an image of 3 signal types, 2 aspect, 3 aspect and 4 aspect.

 

/media/tinymce_upload/Train-tech_Signals_2A_3A_4A.jpg

 

What are the colour aspect for the signals that are missing, based on the position of the train

Port ID of signal showing

 

Just add in your reply for example

EXAMPLE-1  4, 3, 2, 1 = C, C, C, C

etc

Where C in the example is the colour aspect of the signal in each example.

 

EXAMPLE-1  25,  20,  15,  10 = R,  G,  G,  G  2 aspect signals are the simplest

EXAMPLE-2  55,  50,  45,  40 = R,  Y,  G,  G   3 aspect signals add a third dimension and become more interesting to plan and to view

EXAMPLE-3  85,  80,  75,  70 = R,  Y,  YY, G  4 aspect signals are for faster lines, the sequences make the screen and layout more interesting but more planning is involved.

The red and green aspects are brighter than the yellows, so all red and green aspects can be a bit in your face. The Double Yellow, proceed with caution and the Yellow proceed with extra caution certainly make a layout more interesting, I think.

[PJ_model_trains]

Moving on a little

Do you think the situation below is correct or not possible?

Could trains end up as shown below?

 

/media/tinymce_upload/Train-tech_Signals_4x4aspect_4trains.jpg