Double Slips and Graphic Circles

[WildSwan]

Hi Gang

My first post here so please be gentle.

I have recently added accessory decoders to my DCC layout and am now controlling using Railmaster. I have 2 Peco Double Slips (2 point motors) on my layout which I am struggling with.

I have created them in my track plan but am facing some confusion with their operation. When I specify the points as being part of a Double Slip I have to list the second part of the slip in the list of "other points". Once I have done that for both points and then look at the definitions again, each time the "other point" has dissappeared from the setup box.

In operation (I dont evenm know if they are wired the right way round yet) I am seeing different types of circles on the track plan round the outside of the point control buttons. I have blue, blue and black flashing, black and grey, depending on the route I try and select.

Can anyone shed any light on what these circls are trying to tell me?

I have some other "newby" dumb questions also. The first one being that I have seen in the screenshots thread some users have two loco control boxes next to each other i.e. 2 accross and 4 down on the screem - how do I do that?

Thanks!

[WildSwan]

This was supposed to be in the Railmaster section - sorry 

[WildSwan]

This was supposed to be in the Railmaster section - sorry 

[St1ngr4y]

Hello WildSwan,

Welcome to the Forum. I, too, have a couple of Peco Double-slips on my layout, but they were successfully incorporated into my layout before these facilities were introduced into RM. If I were you, I wouldn't bother using the RM Double-slip configuration. On your layout diagram, simply have two ordinary points toe-to-toe with a straight piece between. If these are horizontal on your layout diagram, the thing to remember is that the left point refers to the point motor moving the blades at the right end of the DS, and the right point refers to the point motor which moves the blades at the left end of the DS. If this is as clear as mud to you, then tell us. Maybe I can upload an example image which may help.

Ray

[WildSwan]

Hello WildSwan,

Welcome to the Forum. I, too, have a couple of Peco Double-slips on my layout, but they were successfully incorporated into my layout before these facilities were introduced into RM. If I were you, I wouldn't bother using the RM Double-slip configuration. On your layout diagram, simply have two ordinary points toe-to-toe with a straight piece between. If these are horizontal on your layout diagram, the thing to remember is that the left point refers to the point motor moving the blades at the right end of the DS, and the right point refers to the point motor which moves the blades at the left end of the DS. If this is as clear as mud to you, then tell us. Maybe I can upload an example image which may help.

Ray

Hi Ray

I think an image or two would be most helpful. If you could upload something I would appreciate it.

Mark

[WildSwan]

Hello WildSwan,

Welcome to the Forum. I, too, have a couple of Peco Double-slips on my layout, but they were successfully incorporated into my layout before these facilities were introduced into RM. If I were you, I wouldn't bother using the RM Double-slip configuration. On your layout diagram, simply have two ordinary points toe-to-toe with a straight piece between. If these are horizontal on your layout diagram, the thing to remember is that the left point refers to the point motor moving the blades at the right end of the DS, and the right point refers to the point motor which moves the blades at the left end of the DS. If this is as clear as mud to you, then tell us. Maybe I can upload an example image which may help.

Ray

Hi Ray

I think an image or two would be most helpful. If you could upload something I would appreciate it.

Mark

[HornbyRailMasterSupport]

Using the dedicated double-slip function within RailMaster (if you have the Pro-Pack) does more than just operating two points back-to-back, as in in the previous version of RailMaster. Peco double slips have a certain logic to them so that when you switch one set of blades the other set of blades for the same slip can also, but not in all circumstances, move. It is difficult to explain unless you have one of these double-slips. The fact is that the RailMaster double-slip function 'intelligently' switches the blades and matches the graphic on the screen. Essentially, it knows how the Peco double-slip works. These are fiddly points and we have tried to make their implementation in RailMaster as painless as possible.

 

Having said all of the above we found that Peco double-slips are more likely to cause derailments due to their fine and complex pointwork. It's a difficult one because there's no doubt they are elegant points and can reduce the space needed for two normal points, however we found that using two Y points back-to-back takes only a few cm more and is more reliable, achieving the same thing.

[WildSwan]

Thanks Mr Hornby Railmaster Support - can you explain what the graphics are trying to tell me with the different coloured circles? Here for example I have one blue circle and one grey on points 19 and 20 which are configured as my double slip (I also have seen flashing blue and black). This functionality must have been included to tell the user something?

 

/media/tinymce_upload/circles.png 

[St1ngr4y]

Thanks Mr Hornby Railmaster Support - can you explain what the graphics are trying to tell me with the different coloured circles? Here for example I have one blue circle and one grey on points 19 and 20 which are configured as my double slip (I also have seen flashing blue and black). This functionality must have been included to tell the user something?

 

/media/tinymce_upload/circles.png 

I would be most interested in that explanation too :-)

Ray

[96RAF]

Re showing loc trottles 2 across - its described in the RM manual how to do this as it means amending the railmaster.ini file found in the RM folder on your PC.

[WildSwan]

Re showing loc trottles 2 across - its described in the RM manual how to do this as it means amending the railmaster.ini file found in the RM folder on your PC.

Thanks - I can't see that setting in the manual for looking - can you provide a pointer to the .ini parameter I need to change?

 

Many thanks.

 

Mark

[poliss]

You do know that Peco point motors are wired differently to Hornby ones I presume?

[WildSwan]

You do know that Peco point motors are wired differently to Hornby ones I presume?

Yes indeed I do.

[WildSwan]

Re showing loc trottles 2 across - its described in the RM manual how to do this as it means amending the railmaster.ini file found in the RM folder on your PC.

Thanks - I can't see that setting in the manual for looking - can you provide a pointer to the .ini parameter I need to change?

 I've found it; it's in the settings screen "loco control area number accross" drop down selection.

 

Mark

Many thanks.

 

Mark

 

[St1ngr4y]

Hi Ray

I think an image or two would be most helpful. If you could upload something I would appreciate it.

Mark

Hello Mark,

In the image below, I have included a picture of an actual double-slip, as well as the two-point representation of it in the Layout Diagram...

 

/media/tinymce_upload/Peco_Double_Slip.png

I have used the same addresses 19, 20 as in your layout. In the picture of the point, below where I've put the numbers 20 and 19, there are tie-bars, and to each of these are connected four point blades. If a train is approaching from the left on either of the tracks A or B, then the position of the first set of point blades (under number 20, will decide which of the two tracks on the right, C or D, will be selected. In your track diagram, this is exactly the function carried out by the right hand of the two points which has address 20. When the same train reaches the set of point blades on the right, they will have to set to whichever starting point A or B the train is coming from. On the track diagram the same applies to the setting of the left point addressed 19.

If a train is approaching from the right, the same logic applies the other way around.

I hope this explains what I was trying to say earlier without the diagrams.

In HRMS's reply, they state "Peco double slips have a certain logic to them so that when you switch one set of blades the other set of blades for the same slip can also, but not in all circumstances, move." I'm afraid I've re-read this over and over, but I still can't understand it.

Ray

[WildSwan]

Hi Ray

I think an image or two would be most helpful. If you could upload something I would appreciate it.

Mark

Hello Mark,

In the image below, I have included a picture of an actual double-slip, as well as the two-point representation of it in the Layout Diagram...

 

/media/tinymce_upload/Peco_Double_Slip.png

I have used the same addresses 19, 20 as in your layout. In the picture of the point, below where I've put the numbers 20 and 19, there are tie-bars, and to each of these are connected four point blades. If a train is approaching from the left on either of the tracks A or B, then the position of the first set of point blades (under number 20, will decide which of the two tracks on the right, C or D, will be selected. In your track diagram, this is exactly the function carried out by the right hand of the two points which has address 20. When the same train reaches the set of point blades on the right, they will have to set to whichever starting point A or B the train is coming from. On the track diagram the same applies to the setting of the left point addressed 19.

If a train is approaching from the right, the same logic applies the other way around.

I hope this explains what I was trying to say earlier without the diagrams.

In HRMS's reply, they state "Peco double slips have a certain logic to them so that when you switch one set of blades the other set of blades for the same slip can also, but not in all circumstances, move." I'm afraid I've re-read this over and over, but I still can't understand it.

Ray

Ray

 

Thank you very much for taking the time to upload these images; I will digest what you say and do some experiments.

 

I think the point of HMRS's reply and the reason for including "logic" in the Pro Pack is because there are combinations of settings on a double slip that will generate a derailment from certain entry points. I think the idea of using the double slip logic is that you would click on the entry point button and then the exit point button and the software would set up the slip appropriately for the route you have selected. I can only assume that the couloured circles are related to the logic - perhaps even the black circle denotes a "no entry" as there would be a derailment if a loco entered that point of the slip - but I am guessing completely.

 

If we could just have an explanation as to what the different coloured circles represent then I suspect it would all fall into place! Seems strange to include this and not document it.

 

I can't figure out the colours or the logic by experimentation however, but as I stated at the very start I am not even sure that I have the two point motors wired the right way round....

 

Mark

[idlemarvel]

I agree Ray, the Hornby comments are unfathomable.  They are not very complimentary about Peco slips in an earlier posting - "Having said all of the above we found that Peco double-slips are more likely to cause derailments due to their fine and complex pointwork" - I have double and single slips and never had a problem with them.  Derailments are due to them not being set properly.

The double slip logic is easier to understand if you think of a double slip as two points back to back overlapping.  Overlapping is the important bit; using Ray's diagram think of one point as exits A and B and switch 19, and the other as exits C and D and switch 20.  Then it becomes clear that switch 20 determines which exit C or D is taken, rather than switch 19 which is the nearer and perhaps more intuitive choice. 

[RB51]

That is what I do Ray, except I use R/H and L/H points back to back instead of a Y. For me the C&D in your example is one side of a crossover so is "double wired" with it's partnered point in the crossover and the other I operate as a single stand alone point. With the blue indicator lines and the redgreen buttons lighting up it is easy to work out if the route is set correctly. R-

[St1ngr4y]

Hi Guys,

The thing to do is to try to forget the complexity of the actual point. When controlling it on the layout diagram, just treat it as the two points shown. You know the track the train is coming from, you know which track you want it to leave on, so just use the red/green buttons to set that route on the track diagram and Bob's your uncle.

Ray