RDS Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 ... Forum member RDS (I think it was RDS) uses this dual power type of decoder. He had problems trying to fire his points just from the DCC signal derived voltage. His problems were instantly resolved once he added a secondary auxiliary 19 volt DC Laptop power supply to the solution to provide the additional CDU firing voltage. Unfortunately, the ADS decoder doesn't support a dual power feature ... Yes, it was me. It doesn't help paul.b but the decoders I use (5 off) are the E-Z Command brand and have been 100% reliable since I started to use the ex-laptop PSU, rather than the DCC supply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul.b Posted October 3, 2016 Share Posted October 3, 2016 Hi Guys I`m using hornby surface point motors i tried the motors just sitting on the baseboard not screwed down and i can see the latch twitch i have ordered some 24/0.2 cable and will re wire the point motors with that just to make sure its not voltage drop with the 16/0.2 cable,even though the wires on the point motors are alot finer than the 16/0.2 I`m using Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted October 3, 2016 Share Posted October 3, 2016 The Hornby R8243 surface mount motor has three wires Red, Green & Black. The 'Black' should be the common return and should connect to the centre terminal of the three solenoid terminals on each port of the ADS decoder. Also see comment above second attached image below..Note: that the peco PL11 surface mount motor uses the Green and not the Black wire as the common return..There is some anecdotal evidence to suggest that some Hornby R8243 motors left the factory with the Green and Black wires reversed. I appreciate that you have tested your wiring successfully with an external CDU manually switched, but it may be worthwhile just trying again with the Green & Black wires reversed to see if there is any improvement in motor function. This suggestion assumes that the Red wire is not terminated on the centre Solenoid terminal in error as described in the second half of my post below..Note - When you get the point working and assuming it is finally wired as per the diagram below. If you then find the point throws the wrong way, reverse the Red & Green wires leaving the Black on the centre terminal./media/tinymce_upload/88bab62a068eaec837fc3fb65bd5d4a6.jpg.I notice that the DCC Concepts installation instructions show a motor attached with a Red wire terminated on the centre solenoid terminal - see image of manual extract below. Just for the purpose of clarity. The colours Red & Black used in the DCC concepts instruction manual represent +ve and -ve voltage polarity and NOT wire colours of the point motor. Thus, if you have put the Red wire of the Hornby R8243 on the centre solenoid terminal then it is mis-wired../media/tinymce_upload/e0df3e72ddaf87b98d485607ef1469f0.jpg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul.b Posted October 8, 2016 Share Posted October 8, 2016 Hi Guys got my new cable 24/0.2 and rewired all points braided the cable as per instructions with the ADS8fx and still no luck. I even made up a new layout on railmaster and added one point set it to controller A port 1and saved it went back to main screen set the switch to learn and clicked on the point on the screen left and right put the switch back to run and tried the point and nothing just a click from the decoder. Thinking of giving up on this decoder ☹️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yelrow Posted October 8, 2016 Share Posted October 8, 2016 Paul, they really simplicity itself. Must be cos all mine worked first time, and i could not get other brands to work. If the decoder clicks, then its firing. I would try 2 more things. Take 3 pieces of wire from any set on ASD8, take them to where you can see them from Your laptop, eg, right next to you, Wire up the point motor, then set the switch to run. If point does nor fire, but decoder clicks, its the point. Try another point. If that works, you have solved fault, Secondly, when you click on RM, is the point changing, eg, little blue lines moving. I never did master ESU, decoders, but these are a doddle. Let us know, as you have 8 places to put the wires, if the other 7 work your points, you may have a faulty one, eg, 7 out of 8 work, but tis very unusual. john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted October 8, 2016 Share Posted October 8, 2016 PaulB have you reviewed your wiring in light of my posted images (three posts above this one). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul.b Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 Hi ok reviewed all my wiring and all is ok so last night i connected a seep pm2 which i know is working to each output on the ADS8fx and tried it trying ports 1-8 on each output as i dont know which port is set to what number as i cant get a point to fire and all outputs just click none would fire the pm2 so it looks like i have a duff ADS8fx decoder cant believe it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yelrow Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 Paul, Have you got a spare normal point, surface or otherwise, you could try. Also, if nothing fires, how do you know that the one you tried is still working. I think you need to know which point goes where. If you really dont know which point is set to which number, you are starting with a dogs breakfast.. john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St1ngr4y Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 Paul,Did you know that you can test the decoder without using RM? The decoder needs to be connected to the DCC circuit to provide power. Each port on the decoder has a set of three terminals marked "momentary". You can fire a port using a piece of wire in a U shape. Simply touch one leg of the U to the centre momentary terminal and at the same time touch the other leg to either side terminal of momentary, and the point should fire. Then touch the centre and other side terminal and it will fire the other way. You can then repeat this on each port to which you have a point connected. Have you tried that?Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yelrow Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 Hi Ray, thats very interesting, i have learned something. I identified all mine by using the Elite, then wrote the point number on the point, and added a diagram under decoder. I had set them all up with RM, but somehow, two fired together. All sorted now. Its hard to belive paul has been unlucky enough to get a faulty one, Although. Richard at DCC, will happily replace, if thats the case, as Fishy said, several posts ago. I had one that only 7 worked on, and he sent new ADS2, FOC, by return Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 More evidence of Ray's lateral thinking - (Ray, F0 in programs). Using the optional manual operation mode feature to test the majority of the decoder circuitry. This will prove the CDU and point wiring part of the decoder circuit. A good idea and plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul.b Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 Hi the pm2 point Iam using i tested with and old CDU and a momentary on off on switch also i set up all the points using this old CDU and they all fired so i know its not dodgy points or wiring. just incase though I have the ADS8fx set up thus I have 3 inches of 24/0.2 cable red black and green coming from each port going into a strip connector block then from the choc block i have the R G B wires 24/0.2 braided going to their respective points at the point end of the braided wires they too go into a choc then to the point motor could the choc blocks be causing an issue/media/tinymce_upload/e07a205f83f61dd4cda7be143abf245f.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 could the choc blocks be causing an issue.Unlikely, unless they are of the 'Insulation Displacement Connector IDC' type (Scotchloks for example). If you have access to a mult-meter that can measure Resistance ohms (available for less than £5 on ebay). Then, if you disconnect the wiring from the ADS connection strips you should be able to measure a very low resistance (typically anywhere between 4 and 15 ohms) between the Black and Red wire and between the Black and Green wire. And additionally, twice whatever the readings you got during the previous measurement between the Red and Green wires. Getting these results would prove beyond doubt your wiring and point motor termination connectivity..But do try the 'using the ADS momentary terminals' test described and suggested in the previous posts first. If that is successful, that will also prove the issue back into the ADS as a DCC signal configuration / functional issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul.b Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 Hi guys so at last its all working 😆 i have spent hours and hours on this decoder checking and double checking my wiring to all the point motors and was getting nowhere. Then last night i was just sitting having a coffee going over and over all that I had done and then it dawned on me the only thing i have`nt done was try the dcc power connection on the decoder on one of the other inputs on the ADS8FX decoder. So this afternoon i thought what have i got to lose by trying it and bang the decoder atarted working properly all points firing could not believe it all that hassle and i only needed to move the dcc feed to the decoder 🫨 thanks for all the help and suggestions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 Looking at the graphic for the ADS8fx decoder, there are four positions along one side of the decoder marked "DCC in" (i.e one pair of terminals in each strip of 11 terminal positions on that particular side)..Paul for the benefit of others who might have a similar problem in the future. Could you provide a definitive description of which "DCC input" connection position you used originally, and which position that worked?.To make it easier for you to answer, I have marked the four pairs of terminals marked "DCC In" as A, B, C & D in image below..The DCC Concepts instructions infer that position A should be used../media/tinymce_upload/b6202961d56ce417573251ec7469c02c.jpg. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St1ngr4y Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 The ADS8 has four pairs of decoders, each pair being marked A and B. The A sides of the decoder have two more terminals than the B sides, and these provide the DCC input for both sides (A & B) of each pair. So for each ADS8 there are fours sets of DCC input terminals which need to be connected to your bus (or controller). With mine I brought in one set of DCC leads and connected them to the first decoder pair, then "daisy-chained" the other three from there.Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St1ngr4y Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 We were both typing at the same time again, Chris 😆 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 Correction to post above:.I wrote "The DCC Concepts instructions infer that position A should be used.".After re-reading the text in the DCC Concepts instructions more closely, they just state that the ADS8fx needs only a single power connection, but they don't state any preference to which one of the four possible connection positions it should be. This would indicate that all four possible power in termination points are 'commoned' on the PCB..If the one you used originally didn't work, then that particular input terminal must have a fault (perhaps a dry solder joint on the screw down terminal strip or a broken PCB track). Using an alternative connection position then circumnavigated the faulty connection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 Just to provide the evidence for only a single DCC power input being needed, I have added a snapshot of the instructions below with the relevant section of text highlighted. Ray's dasiy chaining provided "belts'n'braces" to ensure 100% that power was connected../media/tinymce_upload/62625d41c9250bd559ab4a18dab06e95.jpg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 Life would be so much easier if the EDIT function was working, then posts wouldn't necessarily get out of sequence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 and spelling mistakes could be corrected - daisy not dasiy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul.b Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 I had it in A and moved it to D as it was easier to get the wires in as i had no points connected to this output as it was a spare for any future upgrade to the layout Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 Thank you for the feedback, useful information to store away for future use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belah Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 Hi can I add a few observations on these decoders hoping not to repeat points made elsewhere. I have nine of these units with a couple more on order and find them infinitely preferable to the Hornby decoders which they are replacing. I have been fitting these since July and so far have two failed units. One has already been returned for exchange after it started to generate uncontrolled pulses to the point, in one case powering movement in the point even before I had assigned the identity in learning mode. The second unit just gives an unclearable error message when power is connected from the bus.My second observation relates to crossings and peco surface mounted point motors. Most of my points use peco pl10 under baseboard motors and crossovers work perfectly with the two points given the same identity and wired to the same output on the decoder. I can not get a similar arrangement to work with the surface mounted points. The unit will not reliably fire both points when wired to the same decoder outlet. If I wire them to two separate ports on the decoder then however much I adjust polarity I can not get them to correctly align for the crossover.. the only reliable work round seems to be to use two ports for these crossovers with different identities so the left hand point is 12 and the right hand becomes 112. It solves the problem but at first seemed a cumbersome solution. Fortunately most of these crossovers are on the helix and by controlling them through routes and programmes in Railmaster the solution seems to work with little inconvenience though at greater cost of extra decoders.Has anyone else found issue with these surface mounted points operating in pairs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St1ngr4y Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 Hello Belah,By crossover, do you actually mean a passing loop? If so, this thread may be of interest.... https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/post/view/topic_id/6332/?p=2 There should not be any difference between the operations of sub.baseboard point motors and surface mounted ones. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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