How do I make and wire up points to make them move when clicked?

[Mr. Trainguy]

I have the hornby majestic train set and all is well, but I do not know how to wire up and control points/junctions on Hornby RailMaster. Does anyone know hot to do this? Many thanks in advance.

[37lover]

I'm sure many others will be along shortly to help, in the meantime have you fitted any point motors and do you know about accessory decoders?

[Chrissaf]

Jack

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As 37lover says "Do you know about accessory decoders?". To be honest, for people to give advice on "how to wire up and control" they would need to know what products you intend using. There are just too many variables.

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Some very simplistic basics just to get you thinking:

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1) Read the sections in the RM manual relating to configuring an Accessory Decoder. Also read the section in the RM manual on creating a track plan.

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2) If you want to control your points from within RailMaster you will need an Accessory Decoder. There are other's (some people say better) but Hornby's is the R8247. It can control up to 4 individual points and is designed for Hornby solenoid type point motors either the R8014 for under baseboard mounting or the R8243 for surface mounting. The R8014 is designed specifically for Hornby brand points. If you want to control more than 4 points and up to 8 you will need a second 4 port accessory decoder and so on.

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3) The wiring for solenoid point motors consist of three wires; a common return wire, a turn left wire and a turn right wire. These three wires connect the three terminations on the point motor directly back to the point output (port) connector on the accessory decoder. On the Hornby R8247 accessory decoder the point port is marked - C +. The C terminal is the Common return and the - & + terminals control the direction to which the point turns. If using a Hornby R8243 surface mounting point motor, it is shipped with three wires already attached. One Red, one Green and one Black. The Black wire goes to the R8247 C terminal, typically the Red goes to the + terminal and the Green goes to the - terminal. The Red and Green can be reversed if the point goes the wrong way relative to what is indicated on the RM display.

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4) Most (including the Hornby R8247 decoder) also connect to the DCC signal either by direct connection to the track (using a push in connector - the R8247 ships with one in the box) or connect to separate DCC Bus wires if implemented. Thus the DCC controller tells the accessory decoder what point (port) to fire via the DCC digital signalling interface based upon the commands that you send from within RailMaster by clicking on the point control display icon. In a similar way that you use the DCC commands from within RM to control your loco(s) by clicking buttons and moving sliders.

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5) The DCC accessory decoder will need to be configured by you using RailMaster, preferably before all the final wiring is connected, as it (if using a R8247) will need to be programmed first using the 'programming' controller interface and not the main DCC track output interface.

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6) In RailMaster you will need to create a track plan (mimic) i.e a diagram representation of your layout. During that process you will need to add point control buttons to your plan and assign them DCC addresses that correspond to the addresses that you allocated to the ports of your accessory decoder when you configured it.

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7) Once all of the above has been completed correctly, clicking on a point control button on your RailMaster track plan (mimic) will cause the physical point to switch. The point icon on your Railmaster screen will also indicate which way the point has moved i.e left or right.

 

 

[37lover]

Excellent summary by Chrissaf.

[Chrissaf]

Thanks

[Fishmanoz]

Hi Mr. T, just noting that you will already have your points on the Majestic Trackplan pre-configured in RM.  In The Layout Design window, you can right click on each of these icons and see what point numbers etc have been allocated.  You then have to configure the ports on your accessory decoders to match these numbers.  Chris told you how.

 

There are 2 common ways to program the ports in accessory decoders, and for me they are the dumb way and the smart way.  The dumb way, as Chris has described, is to connect the accessory decoder to the programming output and program in the port numbers you want - you only have to put in port 1 and ports 2-4 are automatically numbered sequentially after port 1.  The smart way is the decoder has a little Learn Mode switch on it - you just connect the decoder to the track, no programming track needed, flick the switch to Learn mode, throw the point you want it to control, and Bob's your uncle it is done.  Put the switch back to Run and you are up and running.  There are many brands of decoder using the smart way, but the R8247 isn't one of them.

 

Given the array of hardware available for both point motors and accessory decoders, this is definitely an area to do some research on before committing to buying either.  For a start, there is heaps of info on many of them in the forums and a search on accessory decoder and point motor should turn up a lot of it.  In fact, a fair bit has been discussed recently if you just look down the first couple of pages in the DCC forum and this one.

[Chrissaf]

Jack

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One other thing to note if you do eventually decide to use the Hornby R8247 Accessory Decoder. It has been reported that straight out of the box the R8247 may fail to accept programming commands when on the programming interface because internal components have not as yet been exposed to power. Most people suggest that before attempting to program a R8247 for the first time (that is to say configure the port DCC addresses) that the R8247 is connected to the main DCC track outlet of the controller (switched on of course) for a couple of minutes first to charge up internal components, then connected to the programming port to perform the configuration. May not be neccessary in all cases, but no harm to do it anyway to ensure configuration is trouble free.

[Chrissaf]

Jack,

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One further thing to note regarding the R8247. Out of the box I seem to recall that the four ports are preconfigured Port 1 to Port 4 as DCC address 1 to 4. So if you only have 4 points or less, you won't even need to perform Stage 5 in my list. And if the RM pre-configured Majestic Set track plan that Fishmanoz mentioned is also preconfigured with points using addresses between 1 & 4, then you won't need to perform Stage 6 either. Thus, all that would be neccessary would be to complete the physical wiring as per Stages 3 & 4 in my previous list. Making sure that the physical point that you wire the accessory decoder port to, matches the point location shown on the track plan in RM.

[96RAF]

Classic case here of a thousand words where a single diagram would do.

Have a look at Brian Lambert's website here http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/DCC%202.html , where everything is explained in fairly clear and simple terms.

[Chrissaf]

But RAF.....you would spoil my enjoyment.....I like writing 'war and peace'.

 

Not so sure that Jack would find it clear and simple though. This is the second time in six days he has asked the exact same question, very nearly  'word for word' exact that is. I can only assume looking at the answers given in the other thread (link below & dated 1st Feb) that he was left totally confused because nobody took the time to write a step by step, blow by blow response in simplistic terms. Hence he has asked the question again under a different topic name.

https://www.hornby.com/forum/electric-point-motors-8618/?p=1/#post-111521

 

Must admit the Lambert link is very comprehensive though. In fact his pages in general are comprehensive. I've had them bookmarked for ages.

[Yelrow]

He has always been a spoilsport. john

[The Captain90]

I would like to make two points move together  giving the one comand in Railmaster. Is this possible and how do I wire this to my R8247 Decoder. Is there more information available. Have searched but with little success.

Thanks a lot.

[HornbyRailMasterSupport]

You can just wire both points into the same accessory decoder output of your R8247. Just bear in mind that you may need to change the wires around if one point is meant to fire in the opposite direction to its partner (i.e. in a crossover). Then in RailMaster just set up both points with the same DCC ID and when you press either button both points will fire together.

 

RailMaster also allows you (within the Pro-Pack) to set up two separate points on two separate accessory decoder ports and get one to automatically fire the other when pressed. You could also, for example, get it to fire signals at the same time. In your case, though, the first option is the simplest and neatest.

 

[The Captain90]

You can just wire both points into the same accessory decoder output of your R8247. Just bear in mind that you may need to change the wires around if one point is meant to fire in the opposite direction to its partner (i.e. in a crossover). Then in RailMaster just set up both points with the same DCC ID and when you press either button both points will fire together. RailMaster also allows you (within the Pro-Pack) to set up two separate points on two separate accessory decoder ports and get one to automatically fire the other when pressed. You could also, for example, get it to fire signals at the same time. In your case, though, the first option is the simplest and neatest.

Thanks RM Support for your very prompt response.

[The Captain90]

Are Hornby points electrofrog points?

[Chrissaf]

Are Hornby points electrofrog points?

 

No. Hornby points are 'Insulfrogs' in other words insulating plastic frogs.

 

There may be others who make them, but PECO do 'electrofrog' points in their SL-E*** range. Be cautious though, some of the PECO electrofrog points are Code 100 rail, some are Code 75. You will want Code 100 versions for best compatibility with Hornby set track.

 

As a 'rule of thumb' the SL-E** codes with two digit numbers are Code 100 whilst the SL-E**** codes with four digit numbers are Code 75.

[The Captain90]

Thanks Chris.

My plan is to use Hornby track and points for my layout. I am going to use Gaugemaster Seep Point Motors (PM1) and wire a bus and feeder wires. So I don't have any stalling on the points how do you suggest I wire these. One You Tube clip I have seen suggested a feeder wire be soldiered to the point rail.

[Rog RJ]

Thanks Chris.

 One You Tube clip I have seen suggested a feeder wire be soldiered to the point rail.

 

You can only solder a wire to the frog of electrofrog (live frog) points to help to prevent stalling.  Hornby points are dead frog (they have a large plastic frog) and can't easily be modified by soldering a wire to the frog. If you want live frogs, Hornby points aren't recommended.

[Chrissaf]

Captain,

 

Obviously, without seeing the video mentioned in question, it is hard to comment. But as Rog(RJ) has pointed out there is no mod that comes to mind that can be done with Hornby points. If you could post a link to the video, then we can view it and comment more effectively. If you change your mind and invest in some Peco points, still keeping your Hornby track in the main, read more below:

 

The Peco SL-E** points come with an instruction sheet explaining what to do if you want to switch the frog polarity. The curent Peco points come with a bare wire underneath that is already connected to the frog. This wire needs to be extended and insulated to connect to the centre lever contact of the Seep motor. Additionally, the point rails need a slight (easy) modification. Where the frog rails connect to the switch rails, there are tiny little wire links underneath that you need to cut through to isolate the frog from the rest of the point. On the Seep motor, the outer contacts of the changeover switch are wired to your track supply. You need to ensure that you get the track supply the right way round. One other thing to note, getting the alignment right with Seep motors can be quite tricky, as they don't clip (locate) into the base of the point the way some other underboard point motors do.

 

The video you have mentioned might have been done when the point was already fitted, in other words, wiring the electro frog for polarity switching was an afterthought. If you do this polarity switching mod as you actually install the points, it is far easier. All my points are Peco SL-E points.

 

PS - If you haven't yet bought any track at all yet. Then personally, I would buy ALL Peco track from the outset.

[Chrissaf]

Captain,

 

Further to my previous reply, some additional information for improved anti-stalling point performance that you are enquiring about, based on Peco electrofrog points.

 

http://www.peco-uk.com/imageselector/Files/Instruction%20sheets/Code%2075%20Concrete%20Sleeper%20Eng.pdf

 

Here is Peco datasheet for an electrofrog. This one happens to be a concrete sleeper code 75 rail version, but it does have a good close up photo of the OPTION 2 modification needed to convert to switched polarity frog working and connectivity to the point motor polarity switch. The mod is the same regardless of the Peco electrofrog point model.

 

On the datasheet photo there are two positions labelled A & B. Position A is where the factory fitted links that need cutting are located. Position B is where optional wire links (HIGHLY recommended) are positioned to improve electrical reliability - these position B links would needed to be soldered in by you as a local pre-installation modification. Note also, the two arrows on the left hand side indicating the position of insulating rail joiners. Do not miss these off, they are essential for correct working. The insulating joiners shown are SL-111 for Code 75 rail. For Code 100 rail you will need SL-11 joiners.

 

Where the point has already been laid and fitted then it is very difficult to perform this mod retrospectively. As said before, it is best performed at time of installation. I have performed this mod on all my Peco SL-E** points, so any further questions do not hesitate to ask.

[Fishmanoz]

Thanks to Chris, we now have a detailed explanation of best practice DCC point operation using electrofrog with IRJs, frog switching and cuts in the switch blades to avoid shorts in the frog and using Peco points as the example.  If you google DCC point switching, you will find a site that has a pretty moving diagram showing all of this working.

 

But Chris has also given you a reason why Hornby have kept it simple to date and only use insulfrog points with DCC point clips on DCC.  It may not be the most reliable, and smaller locos may stall across the points, you may get shorts with older locos or if your wheel back-to-backs are wrong, but there are no frog switches to contend with, no links to cut and no soldering to the point or fitting IRJs.  Just fit the clips, plug them into your layout and away you go.  That's all many people do.

[choralc]

Is this the link with the animation you referred to FM?

 

http://www.009.cd2.com/turnouts.htm

 

[RDS]

I have just noticed, Mr Train Guy raised this thread on the 6th Feb, 5 days after he raised the same thread under the DCC section called, 'electric point motors' on the 1st Feb.  His original thread had even attracted some answers when he raised this duplicate one.  This duplicate thread is now on its 3rd page, has he been back since. No!

[Chrissaf]

RDS, Good point, well made. I hadn't noticed before but your right, not a peep out of the OP. They say possession is nine tenths of the law. On that basis, I think this thread is now owned by the Captain. At least the Captain has a two way dialogue.

[The Captain90]

Well thanks for everyone's guidance. Whilst my plan was to use Hornby track by adding to the track I have from my Hornby Majestic set. The set came with only 3 points and I will use about 10 in my planed layout (which is changing daily) so it isn't a big issue for me to use Peco electrofrog points if, in the long term, these will be best.

So now my deleima is do I use all Peco track and points, or just use Hornby track with Peco points so i don't waste the Hornby track I already have.

Hope I haven't opened a can of worms here.