RDS Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I am in the process of adding point motors (Hornby R8014) to all 28 of my Points. These will be controlled by ESU Switch Pilot Decoders (36-561).My intention has been that they would be controlled by RailMaster but I am starting to think (dangerous, I know!) that I would like the ability to able to control them using either RailMaster or conventional switches. Just in the same way, that I am currently able to control my layout using the Elite controller, without having to have RailMaster running.Is this possible and if so, how? For example could I just wire the Motors up to Switches as well as the Decoders? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I have three four port point decoders operating 17 solenoid type points, controlled by RM & Elite. If for any reason I don't want to be bothered firing up RM, I just switch my points using the Elite controls. I have a small mimic diagram (6 x 4 inches) as an aide memoir to remind me of the point addresses to key in. This seems a lot simpler and a hell of a lot cheaper than wiring everything via a bank of double pole changeover switches or a bank of relays. For which you would still need a second bank of switches to actually operate the points. If you haven't yet purchased the motors and decoders, then you could consider Peco's Smart Switch system (servo point actuators) combined with the Peco PLS-135 decoder. This system does exactly what you want as it has a switchable DCC / Manual Switch mode built in as standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Simpler than you are thinking RDS and no need to change system as suggested by Chris as Switchpilot has a manual push button/toggle switch mode. See Chapter 12 of the manual. Change of a switch on the unit to go from DCC to Manual mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDS Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share Posted February 25, 2015 ... See Chapter 12 of the manual ...Chapter 12 of the Manual? The Decoder Instructions are limited to 4 A4 sheets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Try this link RDS gleaned from an earlier post about using Switchpilot machines and programming in RM.http://www.esu.eu/uploads/tx_esudownloads/04708-07029_SwitchPilot_51800_51801_51802_ESUKG_EN_Betriebsanleitung_Auflage_III_eBook_01.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDS Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share Posted February 25, 2015 Try this link RDS ...Thank you but although the picture of the decoder is similar to my model, it is not the same and it appears to cover the switching of servo's, rather than the normal outputs. My Decoder has 2 servo outputs (not 4) as well as the normal outputs. We are on the right lines though, someone must have done it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDS Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share Posted February 25, 2015 ... I just switch my points using the Elite controls ...Thanks Chris, this may be a another solution but I was wondering about installing switches because they would be easier to use. I realise though that there would be a lot of additional wiring to do. I have already bought all my Points Motors and Decoders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 That's the same manual I found - 32 pages and complicated. Look again. Four standard double solenoid outputs and 2 only servo outputs, so maybe you need to check again? It is also the reference I used more than 12 months ago to help people who couldn't program this at all. And it works for that. I also remember there are at least 2 versions of this decoder but I think this manual pretty much covers both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 RDS,I've had more time to think this through and I think I might have a much simpler solution using swtiches and isolation / protection diodes. I will try and put a diagram together for you and post it later, subject to image moderation delay. keep looking back. EDIT: Hadn't seen Fishmanoz last reply at time of posting this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Try this link RDS ...Thank you but although the picture of the decoder is similar to my model, it is not the same and it appears to cover the switching of servo's, rather than the normal outputs. My Decoder has 2 servo outputs (not 4) as well as the normal outputs. We are on the right lines though, someone must have done it!Go back to the origianal thread where I found the link RDS - search the RM forum for Switchpilot. It may help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 RDS,Does your version of the Switch Pilot have the 'Ground Solder Pad' shown on page 12 of the manual referred to by Fishmanoz and Hyperlinked in RAF's post above. If it does, then you can simply wire in switches as per the diagram on page 12. The manual notes that not ALL Switch Pilots have the pad though. Despite what you say, the manual in RAFs link does seem to cover (to my mind) the 36-561 product shown on Hattons web site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDS Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share Posted February 25, 2015 ... Does your version of the Switch Pilot have the 'Ground Solder Pad' shown on page 12 of the manual ...There is no Ground Solder Pad on my ESU.Page 17, Figure 10 does seem to be the correct dagram for my Decoder though. I will be very interested to see your propsed wiring diagram. Thank you for taking the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 RDS, diagram as promised. Only relevant if your Switch Pilot does NOT have the Ground Solder Pad option. If your Switch Pilot does not have the Ground Solder Pad, then you could try this. The protection diodes are 6 Amp continuous with 400 Amp instantaneous peak current rated. http://www.rapidonline.com/electronic-components/p600d-200v-6a-rectifier-diode-47-5598 These diodes have a forward voltage drop according to the datasheet of 1.1v, thus the overall voltage lost by the decoder output due to the diodes will be in the region of 2.2 volts. This may be too much to maintain reliable operation of your point solenoids using the DCC decoder, some experimentation is required by you to confirm this. This may not be an issue if you use the external power supply feature supported by the Switch Pilot decoder as this could potentially provide an increased voltage compared to the normal DCC track voltage to compensate. The orientation of the diodes and voltage polarity of the CDU assume that the decoder C terminal is a positive voltage return and the A & B outputs are switched negatives. This would be the expected norm. The diodes prevent the voltages from the CDU from reaching the decoder ports. The CDU should already contain protection diodes internally, at least all the circuit designs I have seen so far do. It is also possible that the protection diodes are not required, subject to the internal circuit design of the decoder. But I wouldn't want to risk it with an experiment to find out. /media/tinymce_upload/Points_Override.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 ... Does your version of the Switch Pilot have the 'Ground Solder Pad' shown on page 12 of the manual ...There is no Ground Solder Pad on my ESU.Page 17, Figure 10 does seem to be the correct dagram for my Decoder though. I will be very interested to see your propsed wiring diagram. Thank you for taking the time. RDS, diagram has been posted, now only subject to moderation delay. I actually posted it just before I saw your confirmation that the solder pad is not present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 RDS,Follow up comment. The ESU manual says that the maximum rating of an externally connected power supply is: 18V AC or 24V smooth DC. There are quite a wide choice of cheap high current 19V DC Laptop power supplies available if you Google. 19V DC should easily compensate for the diode voltage drop and still give a 5V DC safety margin against the max supply voltage of 24V DC. Laptop power supplies tend to be 'switch mode' and highly regulated, so an ideal substitute. Don't go too cheap though, as the really cheap ones tend to have DC outputs contaminated with high frequency noise. Power supply noise, could adversely affect the DCC signal within the decoder. In the diagram only one point is shown for clarity, remember the CDU is a shared resource for all 28 of your points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDS Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share Posted February 25, 2015 Hi ChrisThanks for your diagram. Unfortunately it contains more components than I had hoped I could get away with. I had almost envisaged a double pole switch that would cut the power to the decoder(s) and then wiring similar to your diagram but without the diodes and with the CDU replaced by power from the Aux output on the Elite. I have now looked at the Instructions for controlling points using the Elite and it seems to be less button presses that I had imagined it may have been. Maybe that is the best option, as you suggested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 RDS The real beauty of a CDU is that it eliminates all risk of overheating or at worst burning out your solenoid coils. The way a CDU works is that as soon as the solenoid coil is placed across the CDU terminals via the point operating switch. The transistor inside the CDU switches off, disconnecting the current supply into the CDU circuit. It is just then the energy stored in the capacitor that is expended to fire the point. The CDU cannot start to recharge until the point operating switch is released and the internal CDU transistor switches back on. CDU's by the very nature of their circuit design are completely 'short circuit' proof. Sure, with the manual switch being non-locking. In theory it shouldn't be thrown long enough to cause damage. But what about the situation of an un-supervised child who throws the switch and holds it closed or a wiring short. In these situations the CDU effectively acts as a 'fail safe' device to protect the solenoid coils. The other advantage of a CDU is because you are using the stored up energy of a capacitor, you get an instantaneous current kick of several Amps. A typical solenoid will pull around 3 or 4 Amps maybe more. Without the CDU, then all this current would have to come from your Elite AUX output. Bear in mind, that you have already stated that you are doubling up many of your points. The points with two solenoids wired in parallel will try to draw even more current. The CDU itself re-charges more slowly, typically less than a second, so the current drain on the power supply feeding the CDU is less stressed. Yes you can fire points without a CDU, but having one is highly recommended. Therefore, if the rationale for having a CDU in the circuit is accepted. Then my additional components consist of 3 diodes and a dedicated power supply that can provide power not only for the Switch Pilots, but also the CDU as well. CDU's are not that expensive, they are a very simple circuit and can be built yourself for pennies, OK maybe a couple of pounds. If you want a circuit diagram for one, let me know and I will post one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 Whichever method you end up with, please ensure that there is no way the manual switching of points circuit can get anywhere near the DCC switching of points circuit. A DPDT switch if used must have a centre off position to ensure a definite electrical 'break before make' is there for protection. The danger with a manual switch is forgetting to throw it to the correct side. I use a relay to achieve circuit segregation as I would not rely on diodes with the price of Hornby accessory decoders if this form of protection failed (not that it isn't an acceptable method - just I don't trust it. In my case the DCC only operates the relay coil and the CDU fires through the relay main contacts to the points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 One thing to note for other's reading this thread. The diode based solution above related to RDS (OP) original unique requirements. You need to read the whole thread from the begining. And based on his last reply, he probably isn't going to try implementing it anyway. This solution will NOT work with a Hornby R8247 decoder because the Hornby product in my experience already struggles to provide sufficient voltage output to drive the solenoid point motors, thus any diode induced voltage drops are just going to make the situation worse. RDS is using point decoders that have an external separate power supply that can be higher than the track voltage. In my own case, I have adopted the same solution as described in RAF response above, maybe for different reasons though. My R8247 drives a relay, that in turn fires my points via a CDU. My particular point motors (non Hornby) just would not work robustly enough with the feeble output of the R8247, without being boosted by a higher voltage external CDU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 In my case Chris I had the original manual switching system before I turned to DCC so I was loath to lose the facility and I used the relays as a way of getting the best of both worlds. Quick manual switching of points without using the laborious Elite method with pc operation at first using Rocrail and now RM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 That makes sense RAF... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 Just a matter of interest after that highly detailed description, 8247s contain a CDU, the Switchpilot doesn't, from my reading. 8247s should fire a Hornby point motor without problem, in fact they should fire two. If they fire 2, CDU recharge time becomes significant. Seep motors are another matter and the 8247 won't fire 2 of them, from what others have said on here. As the Switchpilot has no CDU, current draw during firing is high and the use of an external higher volt supply is a good idea. If connected to DCC for power, it can have an effect on loco running while points are switching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDS Posted February 26, 2015 Author Share Posted February 26, 2015 ... RDS is using point decoders that have an external separate power supply that can be higher than the track voltage ...Not quite - I have only tested so far but I was using the track voltage. I did wonder about using the Aux Output of my Elite. Incidentally, this is turning into a fascinating discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDS Posted February 26, 2015 Author Share Posted February 26, 2015 ... as a way of getting the best of both worlds ...I like the sound of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 ... RDS is using point decoders that have an external separate power supply that can be higher than the track voltage . What I meant by that statement, was that the decoders that RDS was using had the capability of using an external supply, not that he was actually using one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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