A list of those computers that don't play nice with RailMaster?

[choralc]

As the heading says, is there a list of those computers that have USB sub-systems that are troublesome with RM with the eLink/Elite either or both used as Controller 1 and Controller 2?

 

USB hardware issues have been alluded to a number of times but as yet I have not seen a list of computer models to be wary of.

[St1ngr4y]

I would have thought the number of different USB sub-systems is much smaller than the number of different makes of computer available, so maybe the request should be for a list of USB subsystems that "don't play nice with RM".

Ray

[Fishmanoz]

I suspect you won't find a list and, if you did, it might be ok today but not tomorrow. All USB systems built in whatever factory will say they are compliant to spec.  Further, the build today and the build tomorrow will Iikely be different, and both will say they are compliant. And then one may be found to be ok with RM and the other not.

 

Then it may be even more subtle. It may not just be the USB, it may be that in combination with the motherboard hardware or firmware.  And then maybe in combination with a particular OEM version of Windows as often used by the big brands.

 

So even in the same model from the same brand, it might come down to a particular manufacturing batch and not be across the entire model.

[MetmanUK]

I suspect you won't find a list and, if you did, it might be ok today but not tomorrow. All USB systems built in whatever factory will say they are compliant to spec.  Further, the build today and the build tomorrow will Iikely be different, and both will say they are compliant. And then one may be found to be ok with RM and the other not.

 

Then it may be even more subtle. It may not just be the USB, it may be that in combination with the motherboard hardware or firmware.  And then maybe in combination with a particular OEM version of Windows as often used by the big brands.

 

So even in the same model from the same brand, it might come down to a particular manufacturing batch and not be across the entire model.

My only criticism of your explanation, Fishy, is that it is probably too simplistic !

[Fishmanoz]

Thanks Metman, I like it, and I only wrote 9 lines as well.  Maybe AC can help out though?

[choralc]

Oh well I was hoping for a 'I have (this) and HRMS could not make it work'  so may my ACER (OS6) live long and prosper. Well live a lot longer at least.

[HornbyRailMasterSupport]

To clear up some confusion regarding USB subsystems, as we support many thousands of users directly we have gathered information on this issue of some USB subsystems on some PCs apparently not working with the eLink and here are our findings:-

1. This issue has been found to occur only on some PCs running Windows 8.1 (all of them laptops)

2. This has only affected four users who have contacted us, that we are aware of, so represents a tiny fraction of the user base

3. Two of the four PCs were Lenovo, one Acer and one HP.

4. In all cases, when the operating system was 'downgraded' to Windows 7 it then worked.  Most Windows 8.1 licences come with the 'downgrade' option as Microsoft know that a large percentage of users are unhappy with Windows 8.1 (especially business users, where Windows 8 take-up is only around 10-15%.  Windows 7 is around 30% and Windows XP is still around 20%)

From all our work and research we believe the following is the case: We are reasonably certain that Windows 8.1 has updated the base driver handling for USB subsystems.  We further believe that some manufacturers may have had stocks of PCs that were designed for Windows 7 and then supplied them with Windows 8.1, having not done fully-detailed tests on all aspects of hardware.  Remember that this USB issue is a subtle one.  This seems to be proven when the PC is then 'downgraded' to Windows 7 and works perfectly.

The issue with Windows 8.1 and USB devices is not unique to the eLink.  Many users around the world have discovered this with other devices, e.g.:-

http://www.thewindowsclub.com/usb-devices-not-working-windows

http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/answers/id-1885037/windows-usb-devices-disconnect-reconnect-power-saving.html

We are working with the manufacturer of the MCU/USB controller chips used in the eLink to see if they are able to provide a workaround to this issue until Microsoft provide an update (if indeed they acknowledge the issue).

Again, we stress that (fortunately) this has only afffected a tiny number of users and as time passes, hopefully newer PCs which are designed for Windows 8.1 will not exhibit this behaviour.  Perhaps also Windows 10 may resolve it.  In the mean time, after trying everything there is to try (updating the eLink driver, updating the USB subsystem drivers) where the only recourse is to 'downgrade' to Windows 7 this does seem to resolve the issue in all cases thus far.

[HFM]

Great news regarding lenovo computers bought one yesterday struggling to get it to install the correct drivers 

Will start a new thread later if cant get it to work.hmrs expect a help request

[westernwill]

HornbyRailmaster

I was one of the users who contacted you with this problem, which you tried to resolve with no success.

For others information I was using a new Dell desktop on Win 8,1.

Luckily I had an old Dell laptop running Vista, so swapped RM to that.

It now works 100% of the time.

Great system.

[choralc]

HRMS, thank you for the informative response.

 

The ACER laptop that I'm using for RM is now eight years old and it is a relief to know that only a miniscule sample is contrary re RM.

 

If in the event it carks-it I shouldn't have to say to a salesperon, "If it doesn't run RailMaster, I'll b back within a week and wanting my money back!" Then again I might get a near-new one with Win8/8.1 installed very cheap ;)

[Yelrow]

Chloralc, hi, it wont apply then, windows 10, on general release, very shortly. Its a pity, this has not been tested,by many people as preliminary downloading, been available, for weeks. john. Me, i am a windows 7 man, through and through. Best prog since xp, which is still best performing version with RM. john

[NormanQ4]

Just a small correction to HRS.

Mine was one of the computers referred to.

The Acer computer is a desktop not a laptop.

I didn't revert back to Win7, I switched to a small laptop running XP and everything now works OK.

[Chrissaf]

I use an ACER laptop model V5-571P-53336G50Mass touchscreen purchased June 2013 with Windows 8 (subsequently upgraded to 8.1). I have NO issues at all with this laptop and RM, it works fine.

 

I should add however that I have had no need to perform any firmware upgrades to Elite with this machine, so cannot comment on its compatibility to do that task. My Elite was supplied at 1.41 revision level.

 

[TonyO]

Thank you for the update re possible USB problems. I have reported problems to RM support with two new 8.1 laptops, one a Toshiba Satellite, the other an HP Pavilion. I don't think the problem is with 8.1 itself as my five-year-old desktop with Windows 8.1 runs the eLink and RailMaster fine. I have also installed Windows 10 on my Toshiba laptop (i.e. double-booted) but I get the same problem (RM/eLink rarely work). If the problem is the USB subsystem then this is not surprising.

I haven't yet worked up the enthusiasm to attempt to install windows 7; I can't triple-boot it as the versions have to be installed in order, oldest (i.e. Windows 7) first.

[Yelrow]

Tony O, it is better for us to read, if you type in the white area. john

[RobinJ]

I can also say that the eLink is fradgile at best on a Surface Pro 2. I can also tell you the reason why!

It seems that USBSER which is the driver used for the eLink (which uses a PIC provided by MicroChip) does something to mangle SetCommState on certain computers (but not all) if sent within 4 seconds of creating a serial port object and returns a HResult of 31 (ERROR_GEN_FAILURE = 31; In the headers of MS the comment is "A device attached to the system is not functioning").It seems that because it is a Virtual Comm Port SetCommState is not actually required and when set, can cause errors.There is also a problem with the USBSER driver relating to ClearCommBreak as it always throws an exception.

The solution (which would have to be carried out by HRS) would be to comment out theses from their serial port implementation OR not set certain serialport properties that call the functions e.g. setting the baudrate (it is a VCP so not actually used).

I still cant believe it was created and still maintained by Microsoft...

[TonyO]

Tony O, it is better for us to read, if you type in the white area. john

Sorry John!

[Augustus Caesar]

Well here goes... just to add a further spanner to this USB debate...

It's not actually down to the manufacturers of the laptop or PC per say... the problem with USB sockets and how they are configured on different motherboards is due to the power they receive from the supply at the end of your power cable or charger. Some sockets simply do not get enough juice to them and it won't matter what driver is used you will never get one thing to work when attached while other pieces of hardware can work perfectly well in that same socket. This is due to the extremely poor wiring quality or chips used for that socket. This is why some USB sticks are very temperamental too and break down very easily... especially if ejected from a socket without releasing them 'safely' in Windows first.

The more basic the laptop, for example, Lenovo are classics, the more likely the issue will rear its head. That is not to say it will always happen with these but it does nonetheless. I have resoldered several USB sockets to Lenovo laptop boards over the years. It's just poor workmanship. Other makes have issues too by the way so don't think i am picking on one alone here. I merely point out that this happens and should be considered.

Why do you think you are requested NOT to use USB hubs when running RailMaster? Easy... same as above and mostly not enough power to get to one adapter socketas the load is spread across all sockets on that hub. Even powered USB hubs are no good for RM.

So while HRMS have given excellent advice above it should be remembered that there are more than one or two reasons for USB failures and not just driver problems.

One more point I feel I should add is that when testing this out and using different USB cables to do tests it is very rare for a cable to be faulty or give a different performance from one cable to the next... unless you buy the desperately cheep versions which are no good as soon as you purchase them... :-)

As I said this is intended as additional info only and its purpose is only to help...

[TonyO]

Thanks for those thoughts but it is a bit demoralising if a new laptop can't drive the eLink. As I've aready pointed out, I have it working OK on a five-year-old desktop (Windows 8.1) and a seven-year old laptop (Windows XP) but not on two new laptops with Windows 8.1 (HP and Toshiba). A difficult one for RM support!

[Fishmanoz]

Tony, just remember that despite the possible USB problems, there have been very few confirmed as having this problem to date. Before concluding USB is the problem, I Would be checking all the setup steps on those laptops using the detail from one of the first 2 sticky threads at the top of this forum, then if still no luck emailing RM Support from within the Help window of RM.

 

From what we've seen so far, you don't have to take your shoes off to count all those with USB problems, so most unlikely you are unlucky enough to have 2 of them.