How do I fit a Smoke Unit to a DCC Loco?

[shagey]

Hi

IHow to power smokeunit on DCC

. I got the smokeunit to  work but it killed the function on the decoder.

   I have looked on here so much about it.

I have looked at bit about the relay but what relay do you need some say you need a resister some say you dont some say you need a diode some say you dont.

Can Anyone help Shane

[Chrissaf]

Shane,

Have a look at this other post for some background reading.

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/smoke-genrater/#post-119024

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As to a suitable relay, then something like this (see link below). This one operates on 12VDC (Ok for DCC derived DC voltages i.e decoder function outputs). 1000 ohm coil resistance so draw current load on decoder is low (about 15mA). Switching current is 500mA which is more than triple a typical smoke gen. Size is nominally 19mm x 5mm x 8mm, I think you will struggle to find anything smaller. If you do decide to use a relay, then I would recommend using a bridge rectifier to convert the DCC track AC signal to DC first, then use the relay contact to connect the rectified DC to the smoke unit.

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http://www.rapidonline.com/electronic-components/12-volt-sil-reed-relay-sil12-60-0655

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For a bridge rectifier something like this.

http://www.rapidonline.com/electronic-components/b80d-diotec-silicon-bridge-rectifier-dil-0-8-1a-80v-50-0267

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The other option is to use a decoder that has enough current capacity built in to drive the smoke unit direct. The Hornby Magazine article in the first link above gives an example of a Zimo MX640D decoder as being suitable. The Hornby R8245 Sapphire has function outputs of 200mA drive capacity, so that should be suitable too.

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Smoke Generators generate HEAT as well as smoke. Plastic Melts. So fit these at your own risk. And don't ever let them dry out of oil, else the smoke unit coil will burn out.

[2e0dtoeric]

Perhaps the Moderators could move this to the DCC threads, and give it a suitable title?

[Chrissaf]

Perhaps the Moderators could move this to the DCC threads, and give it a suitable title?

Already requested that via report function when I provided a reply. Probably won't happen until after Easter

 

 

[2e0dtoeric]

:-)

[Chrissaf]

One further comment to my original post above.

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Something I forgot to comment on. The relay I highlighted in the post also contains an integral back EMF protection diode across the operating coil. Thus, as well as reducing the component count by one and also the physical space needed. The relay coil must be wired into the decoder the right way round. Decoders typically provide switched negative outputs. Therefore the switched ouput of the decoder needs to connect to pin 5 of the relay (see data sheet on the same page of the link provided in my original post). Note: the diode is connected in the reverse polarity of the wire polarity connecting to the coil. Connecting it the wrong way round will stop the relay from operating and may possibly damage the diode. The pin marked + on the case in the image photo connects to the +ve rail of the Decoder.

[shagey]

Hi All

Thanks I am more confused than ever.

Shane

[shagey]

Hi All Again

The smoke units that I am trying to get to work are the old tri-ang/hornby ones with the element in them.

Anyone got these ones working

Need all the help I can get.

THANKS Shane

[shagey]

Hi All Again

The smoke units that I am trying to get to work are the old tri-ang/hornby ones with the element in them.

Anyone got these ones working

Need all the help I can get.

THANKS Shane

 
 

[Chrissaf]

Hi All

Thanks I am more confused than ever.

Shane

Shane,

Could you describe what is confusing you, then I would be in a better position to tailor a response specific to your needs. I thought my previous posts had provided more than enough detail in them. Is it, you don't know what diodes and bridge rectifiers are and what function they would perform in conjunction with a relay in your proposed project.

Chris

 

 

[Blackbird]

Hi Shane, Hornby have used the Seuthe smoke generators for over 40 years, apart from the syncro-smoke units. This is my reply to a previous enquiry on the subject;

Hi Kaustav, I have fitted smoke units to many of my DCC loco, using Seuthe units. From my experience I have found that the full output from the decoder (16v) is a little high for a reasonable 'smoke' output. These units were designed for a variable power input matching DC speed control., where max power isn't aways on. I've found that fitting a 100 ohm, 1/4 watt resistor, in series gives adequate 'smoke' output, reducing the current requirement of the aux decoder output. I would recommend the use of the Seuthe 22 model, (10-16V, 120mA) as it has a slimmer  insulated chimney giving clearance in the plastic loco body's chimney. Alternatively a type 23, is rated at 70mA (no resistor required) at a voltage range of 16-22V. I would not recomend the 100 model (often supplied) as, although it is a neat fit to many chimney stacks, it is not insulated.

 Suethe have over 20 types of smoke generators available, many shapes and sizes to suit many voltage and current requirements. Check out their web site.

Hope this is of help

 

[shagey]

Hi Chris

I think its me

Got a 6 leg relay from maplins, wired it up like  diagram on a other forum.

And you guest it no smoke from unit only from decoder 

Only good thing decoder O.K  just the function 

Do you have any diagram  I can fellow

Shane

 

 

 

[shagey]

Hi Chris

I think its me

Got a 6 leg relay from maplins, wired it up like  diagram on a other forum.

And you guest it no smoke from unit only from decoder 

Only good thing decoder O.K  just the function 

Do you have any diagram  I can fellow

Shane

[shagey]

Hi Shane, Hornby have used the Seuthe smoke generators for over 40 years, apart from the syncro-smoke units. This is my reply to a previous enquiry on the subject;

Hi Kaustav, I have fitted smoke units to many of my DCC loco, using Seuthe units. From my experience I have found that the full output from the decoder (16v) is a little high for a reasonable 'smoke' output. These units were designed for a variable power input matching DC speed control., where max power isn't aways on. I've found that fitting a 100 ohm, 1/4 watt resistor, in series gives adequate 'smoke' output, reducing the current requirement of the aux decoder output. I would recommend the use of the Seuthe 22 model, (10-16V, 120mA) as it has a slimmer  insulated chimney giving clearance in the plastic loco body's chimney. Alternatively a type 23, is rated at 70mA (no resistor required) at a voltage range of 16-22V. I would not recomend the 100 model (often supplied) as, although it is a neat fit to many chimney stacks, it is not insulated.

 Suethe have over 20 types of smoke generators available, many shapes and sizes to suit many voltage and current requirements. Check out their web site.

Hope this is of help

 

 

 

Hi 

I think its me

Got a 6 leg relay from maplins, wired it up like  diagram on a other forum.

And you guest it no smoke from unit only from decoder 

Only good thing decoder O.K  just the function 

Do you have any diagram  I can fellow

Do you have link for website

Shane

 

 

[Chrissaf]

Shane,

You currently have the same question running in two different threads. This thread we are in right now and this https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/post/view/topic_id/8534/?p=3 one. I repeat the question I posed to you in the other thread, last entry on the last page. "It would help to answer your question if you could state the Maplin Product Code for the item you have purchased." There also seems to be long periods between posts and replies, that does make it more difficult to keep a dialogue momentum going.

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Although I haven't ever fitted a 'smoke unit' I do understand electronics and electrical circuits. I am prepared to provide a theoretical wiring diagram but to do so, I need three bits of info from you.

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Namely:

1. The Maplin Product code for the six pin relay you have purchased.
2. The Brand & Product code for the decoder you are using (important to understand where the +ve return on the decoder is located as not all decoders have a separate +ve wire).
3. Do you own a test mult-meter for measuring voltage, ohms and current.

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Would it be possible for you to post some close up photographs of the smoke unit and its relationship to the loco motor chassis. This would help me to look for any potential connectivity issues. For example does it use a chassis power return etc. Also the physical style of smoke unit can give clues to answers of questions I haven't even thought of yet.

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For background guidance and as a plan of action. The approach that I would take to developing this project further would be to treat the project in two distinct stages.

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Firstly to develop the wiring for the factory integrated smoke unit of the model without the DCC decoder in circuit. In other words get the smoke unit working in a test bed environment so that operating voltages and currents can be measured. With stage one complete, you will have proved that the smoke unit is functional and understand the operating criteria and supplementary components required for it to function efficienty (without risking futher DCC decoder damage as it's not in circuit at this stage). Since all your tests to date have failed to operate the smoke unit and/or damaged the decoder. It may be that the smoke unit is faulty, either a burnt out or short circuit heating coil. If this is the case going further with the project in its current state is a pointless exercise. A test bed set up could test for this and would then prove the long term project viability.

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Secondly, to then develop the inter-connection to the DCC Decoder and test the completed circuit functionality.

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You said you purchased the relay from Maplin. Maplin have a letter / number product code on their packaging and web site pages. For example is it this one N15AW (link below)

http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/12v-dc-2a-spdt-sub-miniature-relay-n15aw

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If it is not this one, find the one you purchased on the Maplin web site and post the URL link to the exact product page.

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The reason I need the exact relay info is that I need to know the coil resistance to calculate the relay operating draw current.

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I would suggest abandoning the other thread and putting all posts and replies in this one from now on. It will make future thread following easier.

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EDIT: I don't think the shotgun approach, posting all over the place, is helping. I've just seen your reply in the other thread to Flashbang.

 

[shagey]

[snip]

 

Hi

Thank you for your help very new to it all

Answer to your questions as I said earler the only numbers on the relay areLU12 3A 125VAC  3A 24VDC the make might be RAYEXELEC

The decoder is a Hornby R8215  or a  R8249

No I don't have a mult-meter 

All the smoke units work on DC the smoke unit are the old Tri Ang /Hornby ones

As for photos I am new to this not sure how to get them to you

The smoke unit worked but it blows the function on the decoder

The some as putting the relay in but with the relay  in the smoke unit did not work just blow the function

Hope this helps you 

Again thanks for your help Shane

[shagey]

[snip]

 

Hi Again did forget to say about chatin I normally only get to work on this over the weekends and that is a bit hit and miss sorry 

Shane

[2e0dtoeric]

Shane - please please STOP using the BLUE reply button, because this just muddles everything up even more by repeating all the previous posts. Scroll down a bit, to the white box below where it says REPLY TO (title), type your reply in there, and use the GREEN reply button!

[Chrissaf]

Shane,

OK, I will do my best with the information you have given. It is a pity that you don't have a multi-meter as that would make the project so much more easier, both for you and for me. You can get a cheap one for less than £5 delivered, would you consider buying one? I have given a link to one on Amazon below:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Testing-Multimeter-Voltmeter-Multi-Meter-MultiTester/dp/B008U96UQQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1428866620&sr=8-1&keywords=multimeter

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The above Amazon link is for a company called UKShopping, I've used this company before, their price is cheap, but the down side they ship from China so there are long delivery leadtimes.

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The following alternative is the same meter but shipped directly from Amazon, A little more expensive at £9.99 delivered, but delivery within a few days.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/DIGIFLEX-Testing-Digital-Multimeter-Voltmeter/dp/B003NEGZLS/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1428867134&sr=8-3&keywords=multimeter

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You say "All the smoke units work on DC the smoke unit are the old Tri Ang /Hornby ones" this would infer that they are somehow wired to the wheel pickups. Now that a decoder has been fitted have the smoke unit wires been isolated from the existing pickups. The photos I have requested would really help here to understand the wiring challenges.

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Regarding photos. If you have a camera device (digital camera, a phone, an iPad etc etc) to take a photo and can copy the photo to your PC in the .JPG file format, then follow the instructions in the following post - 4th reply down on the page on 'How To' post a picture.

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/posting-a-photo/?p=1

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Can I make a further suggestion. As you have probably noticed I tend to write long replies. When you reply to me you are using the 'BLUE' Reply button at the end of my reply. This means that all my original text is duplicated in your reply contained in a yellow text box. You might be only writing two lines of text, but a whole page full of duplicated text ends up being posted.

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Instead of using the 'BLUE' Reply button, scroll right the way down to the bottom of the page and just write your reply in the big white text box and click the 'GREEN' Reply button. Then only your new text will be posted. This reply is an example of using the 'GREEN' button, as you can see there is no yellow text box of duplicated text.

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EDIT: 2e0 just got in whilst I was still typing, regarding incorrect use of the Blue button.

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Just very broadly, what location are you? If close, I would be prepared to visit to provide 'hands on' assitance. I'm North Kent near M25 Dartford Crossing.

[2e0dtoeric]

LU12 is not the Maplin part number, either! The part number is not printed on the item, it is the number on the packet it was in, the item number in the catalogue, or on the website. There are many hundreds of different relays, all with different connection patterns, and different current and voltage requirements. I suspect those values you posted are the current and voltage switching capability, not the coil voltage requirement of the relay.

The decoder is a Hornby R8215  or a  R8249 - which one? They are different! Don't guess!

When you start playing with electronics, you NEED a multi-meter. You cannot see electrons with your eyes, and you cannot see what they are doing, or where they are going!

[Chrissaf]

Shane,

I believe this is your Maplin Relay http://datasheet.octopart.com/LU-12-Rayex-datasheet-36985603.pdf please confirm.

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I also believe according to your other thread reply to Flashbang you have also ordered another relay from rapid online using the link supplied in his post. Is that also correct?

[Blackbird]

Hi Shane, can I just return to this discussion on smoke units, assuming you are considering using the Suethe version. A relay is not required, it only involves a more complex installation and space to install. You need to reduce the supply current to the smoke generator, this can be achieved by fitting a resistor in series to the supply to the generator (as I explained in my previous mail) Additionally, with some better grade decoders, you can vary the voltage output to the selected function output by changing the CV value.

[Chrissaf]

Blackbird,

Happy to hand over to you on this one, given your experience of fitting smoke units and knowledge of original factory units outlined in your previous reply. Just be aware that Shane only accesses the forum at weekends, so there are long delays before replies are made. It is not a case of loosing interest, just one of time availability.

[shagey]

Hi all 

I would just like to thank you all.

Sorry for the repeats new here.

All worked fine on DC  but then I see some DCC Trains had to  have some of this but now wondering if I should of bothered

As I said I am very new to DCC and decoders. I put some decoders in to old try-ang/Hornby Trains all worked find. then I thougth I would ues one of the functions for the smokeunit work for a while but then burnt the functions out tried again but just done the same. did not think it would be so hard. Have got new relays from rapid and diodes.But again nor sure how to wire up.

Chris I am not that far from you only in Wickford 

Thanks again for all your help Shane

[shagey]

Hi All Again

Blackbird.  These are the old smokeunits made of metal which worked from the brush pickup and the earth with the train body. Not the newer ones with two wires.

Thank you Shane