Setting up the Select R8213 to control points

[Michael Tanguy]

Hello,

I would like to use my Elite to operate my locos and my Select to operate the points / colour signals on my layout. I have the cable to connect the 2 units but I can' find any information on the actual method of operation. I have tried to input say address 61 on the Select to switch a point but nothing happened. Do I need to do something else?

Any advice greatly appreciated.

Michael

[Chrissaf]

Michael,

Before complicating matters by using the Select as a Walkabout connected to the Elite to control the points & signals. Can you confirm that you can use the Elite on its own to operate them. If you can, this would prove the basic accessory decoder configurations have been done and are working OK.

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If the above is OK, then please state what addresses have been configured for the points and signals?

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You stated "I have the cable to connect the 2 units" can you confirm whether this is a 'flat' or a 'round' cable? If it is the right one, it should be a 'round' cable.

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Answers to the above two questions will greatly help with providing further guidance by the forum contributors.

[Fishmanoz]

Hi Michael, welcome to the forums.  

 

The Select manual does say exactly how to connect up accessory decoders and points and program your accessory decoders.  First though, you must completely separate your track connections from your decoder connections as you cannot under any circumstances have 2 controllers on the same circuit. 

 

What type of accessory decoders and point motors are you planning on?

[poliss]

First things first.  Do you have an accessory decoder? You need them to operate point motors digitally.

[Chrissaf]

Michael,

Just in case Fishman's response confuses you. He is assuming that you want to have the two controllers operating independantly from each other. That is to say, the Elite connected to the track running your locos and the Select connected just to your accessory decoders operating points & signals. With NO cable connection between the two controllers. In that scenario he is perfectly correct, the outputs of the two controllers must NOT be in electrical contact with each other.

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I on the other hand read your original post differently, as you stated "I have the cable to connect the 2 units" I have taken this to mean that you want the Select to function as an additional third control knob to the Elite as a directly cabled 'Walkabout' controller. Both controllers sharing the same mains 'power supply' plug in wall adapter.

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You will need to confirm which of us has understood the question correctly as it will impact significantly on any answers given.

[Michael Tanguy]

Michael,

Just in case Fishman's response confuses you. He is assuming that you want to have the two controllers operating independantly from each other. That is to say, the Elite connected to the track running your locos and the Select connected just to your accessory decoders operating points & signals. With NO cable connection between the two controllers. In that scenario he is perfectly correct, the outputs of the two controllers must NOT be in electrical contact with each other.

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I on the other hand read your original post differently, as you stated "I have the cable to connect the 2 units" I have taken this to mean that you want the Select to function as an additional third control knob to the Elite as a directly cabled 'Walkabout' controller. Both controllers sharing the same mains 'power supply' plug in wall adapter.

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You will need to confirm which of us has understood the question correctly as it will impact significantly on any answers given.

 

Many thanks for your replies so far.

Yes I would like my Select to operate a turnout and my Elite to operate my locos. Both controllers sharing the same mains 'power supply' plug in wall adapter and linked together by a flat cable. I am using a Hornby Accessory decoder and the

address for the point is 60. I am using a non Hornby colour signal so that's another day's work...

I hope that these details will help.

Thanks again,

Michael

[poliss]

I know the procedure on programming accessory decoders with the Select and with the Elite, but I'm not sure of the procedure when using the Select as a Walkabout. I suggest you contact Hornby Customer Care to ask them and then post their reply on here. :-)

Be sure to tell them the Firmware version of the Select and the R number of the Accessory Decoder.

Hornby posted this about accessory decoder versions.

"The later R8247 does not require any special procedures in programming.. please note the R8247 was incorrectly labelled as an R8216 in production.. i.e. the aluminium product label on the underside of the unit is incorrect.. However the packaging and instructions are correct. There is a date code on the underside of the unit.. engraved into the underside you will find the numbers 50/07.. this identifies the unit as R8247. Any earlier date code is a R8216."

[Chrissaf]

Michael,

You answered one of my questions with the answer that the Walkabout connecting cable you are using is 'flat'. This would suggest that the cable you are using is the Hornby R8236 cable that is meant to be used with the Hornby Booster. This cable is not compatible for Select Walkabout use. You need a Hornby R8266 cable which has a 'round' profile, not 'flat' and is wired slightly differently. Having the correct cable may resolve your issue, see below.

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There is an existing three page thread covering the difference between these two cables. The R8266 is not currently an orderable item from Hornby as it comes as part of the orderable Select Walkabout unit, but there are non Hornby suppliers of a compatible cable copy R8266 for converting standard Selects to Walkabout versions. Links to which, are featured in the existing thread mentioned above on page 2 of the thread - see link below.

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https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/post/view/topic_id/8842/?p=1

[Michael Tanguy]

Michael,

You answered one of my questions with the answer that the Walkabout connecting cable you are using is 'flat'. This would suggest that the cable you are using is the Hornby R8236 cable that is meant to be used with the Hornby Booster. This cable is not compatible for Select Walkabout use. You need a Hornby R8266 cable which has a 'round' profile, not 'flat' and is wired slightly differently. Having the correct cable may resolve your issue, see below.

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There is an existing three page thread covering the difference between these two cables. The R8266 is not currently an orderable item from Hornby as it comes as part of the orderable Select Walkabout unit, but there are non Hornby suppliers of a compatible cable copy R8266 for converting standard Selects to Walkabout versions. Links to which, are featured in the existing thread mentioned above on page 2 of the thread - see link below.

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https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/post/view/topic_id/8842/?p=1

 

I'm terribly sorry. The cable is actually "round" but not purchased from Hornby Oops.

I don't know if that's the problem or not. The supplier said it was compatible.

[Chrissaf]

Michael,

If its round and the supplier said it was compatible, then it probably is**. In which case, I go back to my original question in my first reply that is yet to be answered - duplicated below:

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"Before complicating matters by using the Select as a Walkabout connected to the Elite to control the points & signals. Can you confirm that you can use the Elite on its own to operate them? If you can, this would prove the basic accessory decoder configurations have been done and are working OK."

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If this initial hurdle is passed OK, then we only then need focus on looking at communication between the Select and Elite.

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Note** Just in case it is relevant, who was the supplier. Was it a supplier that specialises in model railways?

[Chrissaf]

Michael,

One additional thing for you to confirm for me. Can you confirm that you have the Select Walkabout connected as shown on the left hand drawing in the image below and NOT as shown on the right hand drawing. If wired as shown on the right, then that is why it is not working. The right hand side drawing is invalid and won't work. Red & Blue are just arbitrary wire colours I've used for the drawing.

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/media/tinymce_upload/cebaa131aff0b83833992118926f4c2b.jpg

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Chris

[Fishmanoz]

Yes Chris, you had it right, not me.  Good diagram too, showing both the how to and how not to.

 

And using the Select as a walkabout to control only points gives it, in my opinion, a use apart from as a door stop in very light winds.  Given it is so different in throttle operation to Elite, I would never bother using it as a walkabout for that purpose.

[Chrissaf]

Fishman, it was the reference Michael made to the interconnecting cable in his OP that gave the clue. I don't think he has it wired as per the right, but I thought it wise to be absolutely sure. Besides it gave me a chance to exercise my love of drawing. Interestingly, Adam moderarated it at about 10PM UK time last night. I suspect he must do a certain amount of logging on remotely from home. Shows dedication doesn't it.

Chris

[michael_tanguy]

H

Fishman, it was the reference Michael made to the interconnecting cable in his OP that gave the clue. I don't think he has it wired as per the right, but I thought it wise to be absolutely sure. Besides it gave me a chance to exercise my love of drawing. Interestingly, Adam moderarated it at about 10PM UK time last night. I suspect he must do a certain amount of logging on remotely from home. Shows dedication doesn't it.

Chris

 

 

 

[Chrissaf]

Michael,

May I suggest that instead of clicking the BLUE reply button on each individual post, that you scroll down to the bottom of the page. Put your reply in the big white text box and click the GREEN reply button. Each time you press the BLUE button, all the text in the yellow box gets duplicated un-necessarily.

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This reply is an example of using the GREEN button. As you can see this reply is easier for others reading the topic thread if it is not buried in reams of duplicated yellow text. Particularly as you are clicking the BLUE button but not writing any reply in the post.

[Chrissaf]

Michael,

Whilst waiting for you to come back and provide some feedback to previous posted points and questions I have been reviewing the Select and R8247 Accessory Decoder installation and user manuals. There is a contradiction in them. The Select manual says start addressing your R8247 accessory ports from address 60. The R8247 manual says when using a Select start addressing your R8247 accessory ports from address 61 in multiples of 4. It goes on to note that if address 60 is used, only that one port on the R8247 will be given that address and the other 3 ports will be left un-addressed.

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I suggest that the R8247 manual instructions are probably more accurate, so your R8247 accessory decoders should be addressed as 61 - 64 for the first decoder, 65 - 68 for the second and so on. You mentioned address 60 as being used in a previous post. Based on this new information, that address may not be the optimum point address to use.

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I have also found some other posts on this forum relating to the use of a Select as a Walkabout to an Elite. They make interesting reading and may provide the solution you are looking for - links below (in particular refer to the replies by wiggy25 and Hornby Customer care in the following posts):

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https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/select-walkabout-2/

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/using-railmaster-with-elite-and-select-as-walkabout/

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/select-walkabout-with-elite-2/

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The above posts are quite old and reference the need to have the Elite set in 'Classic Mode' to use a Select as a Walkabout. Given the age of the posts I have this nagging suspicion that this 'Classic Mode' issue was resolved in a later Select firmware upgrade. I'm sure the Select user's here will be able to confirm this as fact or not. In particular, the middle link of the three above has a detailed 'How To' by wiggy25 for using the Select as a Walkabout (albeit when also used as a Walkabout in conjunction with Elite & Railmaster, but still relevant).

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Note the following: The Select has limited functionality compared to the Elite and as the rule of "lowest common denominator" is in effect. As I understand it, you will have to ensure that any loco and point addresses you use are compatible with both the Elite and the Select if you want to use the Select as a Walkabout. That is to say. Loco address in the 1 to 59 range and points / signals in the 61 to 99 range.

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The following is an extract pasted from the middle link. This is particularly relevant to you as you have indicated that you are using point address 60. See the original post for the full context of the extract below.

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"One thing to remember make sure the lowest point address is 63!!If you start at address 60 on the Elite, when you try to operate it through the Select it won't work as the address would need to be 57 (address 60-3)"

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Given the above information I would suggest addressing your points from 65 onwards.

[Fishmanoz]

Chris and Michael, welcome to the wonderful world of the non-NMRA compliant and quirky Select.  For a start here, the Select manual isn't wrong, it starts its addressing at 60.  The 8247 manual is assuming normal group addressing will be used by the controller and so the first address programmed will be a multiple of 4 plus 1, or 61 for the sake of this discussion.

 

Can I suggest this whole problem be avoided by the simple approach of using the Elite to program the points, not the Select, remembering not to program any outside the range of 60-99.  When you look at the Elite manual, you will see this means that you can use group addresses of 15-23, and 24 at a pinch (you can only operate 3 points programmed with 24, being point numbers 97, 98 and 99, 100 being outside the Select range.  Similarly, you could use 14, but you can only operate point 60, 57-59 again being outside the Select range).  

 

You our could of course just program all with the Select too, remembering they will all then be in Select's non-standard groups.  This will only come back to bite you if then go to Elite programming down the line, in which case you will have at least one point number you won't be able to use.

 

Note I haven't attempted to explain group addresses to any extent here, they are well covered in the Elite manual under programming accessory decoders.  After you've read and understood that, you will also see there is some muddled thinking in at least one of the posts that Chris has referred you to.

[Michael Tanguy]

Hi All,

ok first things first, my set is as the diagram on the left. The only difference is that my accessory decoder R8247 is linked by a clip to the track for the power. This afternoon I found out that my point and colour signal worked straight away  using the Elite. They responded when addresses 60 and 61 were selected. These were the addresses chosen when I initially set up the Select. So at least if all fails, this will work. Thanks for the links, they will probably help me find out how I can get my Elite to respond to the Select.

Thanks again for your interest in my problem.

Michael

[Michael Tanguy]

Hi All,

ok first things first, my set is as the diagram on the left. The only difference is that my accessory decoder R8247 is linked by a clip to the track for the power. This afternoon I found out that my point and colour signal worked straight away  using the Elite. They responded when addresses 60 and 61 were selected. These were the addresses chosen when I initially set up the Select. So at least if all fails, this will work. Thanks for the links, they will probably help me find out how I can get my Elite to respond to the Select.

Thanks again for your interest in my problem.

Michael

[Chrissaf]

Michael,

You could try this. Using the Elite, re-address the four ports of the R8247 as 65-68. Using the Elite, now confirm that the point and signal work using addresses 65 & 66. If they do, then try operating them with the Select, but as well as trying addresses 65 & 66 with the Select, try instead using addresses 62 & 63. Make sure Select is in Walkabout mode - see 3rd paragraph down.

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If using addresses 62 & 63 on the Select works, then change the operating mode of the Elite from 'Standard' mode to 'Classic' mode (see page 67 of the Elite user guide for details of how to change the mode). With the Elite in 'Classic' mode check to see if the point and signal now respond to the 'Select' using addresses 65 & 66.

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Also check out the section in the 'Select' user guide regarding the configuration setting needed in the Select to use it as a Walkabout (select user guide page 20). See also the Hornby Customer Care reply in the third link of my earlier post regarding Walkabout startup process.

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This is in essence what the three previous post links I provided are all about.

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If none of this works, restore the Elite back to 'Standard' mode and report back. If any of the above does work, please also report back outcome, so that this thread can be put to bed so to speak.

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Just be aware, that if the Elite is left in 'Classic' mode it will not work with RailMaster if you should upgrade to PC control at a later date.

[Fishmanoz]

Chris, he's just told you it's all working?  And clearly he did his programming with Select and it works with Elite too.  And no need to change Elite modes?

[Chrissaf]

Fishman, If you read Michael's last post carefully. He stated he has it working using the Elite but he is yet to have control via the Select connected as a Walkabout.

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I quote "Thanks for the links, they will probably help me find out how I can get my Elite to respond to the Select."

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Chris

[RDS]

Michael

I would like to suggest that the problem is the cable that is being used to connect the Elite to the Select.  It is not a standard network cable, it is SPECIAL to Hornby and needs to be the correct Hornby Part number, which I think is the R8236, known as an RJ12 lead.  The only wire that should be connected to the Select is this RJ12.  In 'walkabout' mode, the Select gets it's power from the Elite (but I think I read you have already done that).  

I have personally used the Select in this mode and it works well.

 

When the correct cable has been obtained it should be connected to the Elite before the Elite is powered up. Then, try something simple like controlling a Loco from the Select and when and only when, that is working move onto trying to control points.

[Chrissaf]

the correct Hornby Part number, which I think is the R8236, known as an RJ12 lead.

 

RDS, If you remember you got the Walkabout / Booster cable codes the wrong way round before on the other cable thread. The R8236 is the RJ12 Booster Cable. The Walkabout is the R8266 RJ11 cable. Review the 9th & 10th post down on Page 1 where this was discussed with Michael.

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But interesting that you have used the Select as a Walkabout with Elite. What is your experience of the comment about Elite 'Standard' vs 'Classic' modes. Was this an issue for you? Did your points operate with the same address regardless of which controller you were using?

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Chris

 

[RDS]

Hi Chris

Yes you are right it is the R8266.  Interestingly, my invoice says that it is an RJ12, obviously a mistake.

Regardless of that though I still think he should get something simple working in Walkabout mode before trying it with points.  That was the main aspect I wanted to cover.

 

In terms of my own experience with Walkabout, I did not have motorised points at the time and I don't recall the 'standard' and 'classic' mode aspect.  I can't try it at the moment because I have lent my Select to someone who is just using it as a controller.