Graskie Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Well, I've tried to sort it but.............I have two B locos fitted with YouChoos Zimo sound decoders. One has just the single chip but the other has two, the second for better smoke. Both locos have both been set on 4 digit IDs, ie 3 settings. The Zimo chips have up to 366 different CVs.They work perfectly direct from the Elite but, when controlled by RM through the Elite, they have no controllable acceleration, running speed nor deceleration. They take off like scalded cats but I can at least bring them to a halt with RM to prevent any possible damage to the chips.My Elite is set not to allow a DC loco to run and my CV 29's also accordingly. My track, wheels and electrical contacts are all clean.Is this a fault with RM? I have the lastest version installed and my Elite is also up-to-date. I have tried an Elite reset. If necessary I can refer back to the seller who I know will try his best to help me.Any suggestions? Pity to have this sort of problem with such expensive locos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St1ngr4y Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Hi Graskie,Does RM recognise these decoders when you read their CVs, or do you get a warning message asking you to send details of the decoder, including the values of CV7 and CV8, and a PDF guide to the decoder, to HRMS?Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Don't know the answer Graskie but I'm enjoying the question, if you get what I mean. i would have said you have DC runaway on the RM generated DCC signal, as opposed to the Elite generated DCC signal. That hypothesis would have to assume that RM actually generates the NMRA compliant DCC signal and all Elite does is amplify and transmit it, as opposed to Elite having to generate it itself when you turn its knobs and press its buttons. I would assume that's true as it must be for eLink, so undoubtedly Elite is the same. But that can only work if DC operation is allowed in CV29, and you say you have it turned off. Can you double-check that? What is the actual CV29 value? Even your saying you have Elite set not to allow DC running seems to support the hypothesis. So unless CV29 is wrong, I'm stumped. I suggest you email HRMS from RM with all the detail you've given us here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 And Ray has posted while I was typing, and his is an interesting line of thought too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St1ngr4y Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Another thought - are you using a Power Booster between the Elite and the track?Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poliss Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Do you have Railcom set to on or off in CV29? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Can't imagine Booster would do anything different depending on whether Elite or RM generated signal. Surely it just amplifies what it receives? Whats your thought on Railcom poliss? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graskie Posted April 30, 2015 Author Share Posted April 30, 2015 Thanks for your answers, guys. @Ray. I only use my Elite for reading and writing CVs, out of habit really. Perhaps I'd better try that from RM as well. No power booster used. @Fishy. CV29 reads 34, ie 32 for four digit addressing + 2 for speed steps. @poliss. Railcom off on CV29. However, viewing a CV29 table online it says for bit 3 (decimal value 8): "Railcom off/on (Lenz, Zimo, some ESU, and some very recent TCS decoders (undocumented TCS feature)). Unless you know you use Railcom with this loco, leave switched off."So there's the word "Zimo." I'll have to try switching that bit on and see what happens. Thanks for all your interest. I'll report back after a night's sleep! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St1ngr4y Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 Can't imagine Booster would do anything different depending on whether Elite or RM generated signal. Surely it just amplifies what it receives? Whats your thought on Railcom poliss?The reason I mentioned the Power Booster is that I have been trying to get working a MyLocoSound decoder. Using the Power Booster, some of the sound functions have a noticeable delay before they are actioned. I recently found that connecting the Elite directly to the track bus got rid of these delays.Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poliss Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 Just a thought Fishy. I noticed that Zimo decoders have a Railcom function. An email to Zimo describing the problem might be an idea. How exactly did you connect your Power Booster Ray? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 There are several ways to connect a booster according to the manual.Using one of the alternative methods may cure your lag....isn't the title a bit of an oxymoron - "controlled runaway". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJR_slo Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 My thoughts, for what it's worth... RailMaster talks RS232 protocol to Elite and ELink, at different speeds. The Elite/ELink then takes the RailMaster instructions and converts them to DCC protocol and feeds to the line. As far as boosters are concerned, then simply echo an amplified signal to their tracks; there should be very little delay with boosters. I have 10 Zimo sound decoders (all from John @ YouChoos) and have not experienced any of these issues, so my thoughts would be to reset the decoders and start again, testing initially without changing any CVs (using loco ID 003) and then changing one CV at a time and then testing to see what causes the problem. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poliss Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 From what I understand about boosters, they don't amplify anything. They just repeat exactly the same 'signal' to an electrically isolated section of track.The only boosting involved is in the number of locos you can run on your layout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 From what I understand about boosters, they don't amplify anything. They just repeat exactly the same 'signal' to an electrically isolated section of track.The only boosting involved is in the number of locos you can run on your layout. My understanding as well poliss.Bad name for them. I would call them repeaters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJR_slo Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 From what I understand about boosters, they don't amplify anything. They just repeat exactly the same 'signal' to an electrically isolated section of track.The only boosting involved is in the number of locos you can run on your layout.Splitting hairs I know, but they do draw a very small current from the controller and amplify that. Actually, it's not splitting hairs; boosters do amplify the current. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St1ngr4y Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 Just a thought Fishy. I noticed that Zimo decoders have a Railcom function. An email to Zimo describing the problem might be an idea. How exactly did you connect your Power Booster Ray?The Elite has a pair of terminals marked "Boost" and I connected these to the "Boost In" terminals on the Power Booster. I have never tried the ExpressNet connection, as I thought this would involve a translation of protocol between the ExpressNet and DCC.Does anyone know if there are occasions when a loco decoder sends a request message TO the controller, and if so can the Power Booster handle two-way traffic?Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graskie Posted April 30, 2015 Author Share Posted April 30, 2015 There are several ways to connect a booster according to the manual.Using one of the alternative methods may cure your lag....isn't the title a bit of an oxymoron - "controlled runaway". All this talk about a booster and I said I hadn't got one. I used that apparent oxymoron, RAF, simply because I can control the locos starting and stopping with RM, but not their speed. It also allows me to get all the sounds with no problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poliss Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 Graskie. You need to contact Hornby, Zimo or both. :-)I meant how exactly do you connect the booster to the track, Ray.Where do you get the information about the booster amplyfing the current, Peter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graskie Posted April 30, 2015 Author Share Posted April 30, 2015 My thoughts, for what it's worth... RailMaster talks RS232 protocol to Elite and ELink, at different speeds. The Elite/ELink then takes the RailMaster instructions and converts them to DCC protocol and feeds to the line. As far as boosters are concerned, then simply echo an amplified signal to their tracks; there should be very little delay with boosters. I have 10 Zimo sound decoders (all from John @ YouChoos) and have not experienced any of these issues, so my thoughts would be to reset the decoders and start again, testing initially without changing any CVs (using loco ID 003) and then changing one CV at a time and then testing to see what causes the problem. Peter Thanks for that Peter. I had thought about resetting the single Zimo decoder chip and will try that. The other loco, however has two decoders, as I originally stated, and it would not be so easy with that because each one has its own separate 4 digit ID set at my request by the seller and I don't want to risk upsetting both on my programming track. I can't read separate IDs and CVs on the main track and, presumably, can't reset them that way either. I'll try a few suggested solutions and report back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St1ngr4y Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 I meant how exactly do you connect the booster to the track, Ray. The Power Booster has a pair of output terminals marked "track", which are connected to my under-baseboard track bus, to which I have many droppers from the track all around the layout.Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 With any luck Graskie, this conversation is now giving you just the boost you need to sort out your problem! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJR_slo Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 Hi Graskie Just a thought; I only use the short IDs with my Zimo decoders. I wonder if there could be an issue between Zimo/RM when using long IDs. If I get chance later today, I will try setting up a Zimo decoder with long ID to see what happens. Fortunately, I have also programmed an Arduino to display the DCC packets output via RM/Elite, so hopefully I should be able to see exactly what is happening. However, I may not get the chance to do this today, as I have a very busy 3d printer on my workbench and can only move it between print jobs. Will let you know. @poliss - Any booster or repeater with its own PSU takes a small signal as input and replicates that original signal but with amplified power. Power = Volts x Amps. In this case, although the output voltage may be similar to the input, the current is increased (amplified) from a few milliamps to several amps. If this were not the case, then what would be the point of a repeater/booster? A repeater/booster would also be designed tidy up the digital signals, removing any induced signals and spikes from the original. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 Question for PJRWhy would a booster/repater need to amplify the current from milliamps to several amps.Surely the booster PSU provides the same voltage and current as it would to say an Elite or Select on the primary circuit, then it takes the DCC signal from the mother controller and applies it to the secondary district track.The purpose of a booster is to overcome degredation of the DCC signal due to distance from the controller or complexity of the layout regardless of any bus system according to the manual, and it achieves this by taking a clean signal from the primary district and passing it to the next district.Where it gets this signal from depends upon how you connect the booster - to the primary district or direct from the mother controller - using one of the 3 methods shown in the manual.I note that Hornby use the word boost several times in contex of DCC signal in the manual to further confuse things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJR_slo Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 Hi RAF This is rather off-topic, but will give a brief answer anyway... The booster PSU can be quite different to the controller PSU; for example, I could use a 1Amp PSU on the eLink and have a ZTC power booster with a 5Amp PSU. However, it is nothing to do with the PSU as the booster's PSU does not generate DCC data, merely a 15V (or thereabouts) DC supply. The DCC data is generated by a single controller and the booster is either directly or indirectly connected to this controller. The booster takes a very small amount of power from the controller's output and amplifies this with its own power supply to produce DCC signals and power to the secondary tracks. When designed properly with a digital input (where the input is either "on" or "off" - positive or negative with DCC) a booster does not require a "clean" input, but can still faithfully reproduce the original DCC signals without any unwanted transients. I think I read that the NMRA specifications require the data signals to be recognised at ±4V with appropriate rise/fall times over this range. Hence for the booster to operate, a very degraded signal should be totally acceptable. May I now suggest that this thread remains on-topic and that anyone wishing to discuss boosters further, do so in a separate thread. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graskie Posted May 1, 2015 Author Share Posted May 1, 2015 Thanks PJR. If anyone needs a booster, I do. 71 tomorrow if I get there. Tried and managed setting bit 3 (8 decimal) on CV29 on my single chip loco last night, now giving a total CV29 value of 42, allowing Railcom. No change. Will try a few more ideas like resetting decoder and report back again. Bit of a drag on RM because I don't really want to have all the bother of deleting the ID with its current 4 digit one and then setting it up on, say, ID 3, with all the retyping of Functions. Failing that, if I change the loco ID on RM I'll have two duplicate locos and can then delete the one I don't want, thus leaving the Functions intact. Incidentally, I said the loco's Zimo decoder had 366 CVs. Turning the function sheet over, I now see there are in fact as many as 784! I suppose I could also try a factory reset "at the end of the day" (to use a popular football expression). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.