Three reverse loops starting from the same position

[Ollie0033]

/media/tinymce_upload/63c67a4d586bc2624c3c5f72479d1c62.jpgIf you look at the diagram I have for a "type of fiddel yard" I have 3 loops that are eminating from the same point. I have tried to show the feeds to the Reverse Loop module usinf a purple box for the reverse, blue oblong for the isolation and red box for the feed from main track.

My question is : can I run all of these three loops from one Reverse unit given that the starting point is the same or do I need to set up three reverse modules and if so how would one lay out the wiring path from the main track?

One other question related to E-Link railmaster - the reverse loop is set for the Elite or Select - I have a Select for testing but plan to using E-Link and Railmaster for the control of the layout - so what do I set the Reverse Loop to? Select or Elite????

[96RAF]

You have more reverse loops on that layout than I can count.

This may help  you Ollie as it explains that often more than one reverse loop can share a common track each with the other and this is the only bit you need to control polarity on thus saving on RLMs.

http://www.gaugemaster.com/articles/guides/Reverse-Loops-part3.html

You may wish to amend the URL to also look at parts 1 & 2 - just change part3 to either part1 or part2 in the link.

[Ollie0033]

Thanks for the link RAF96 - looked it up but in my case the loops are separate (I think!!) and are not sharing track except for the inward link. To read the rest I tried parts 1 by repacing 3 with 1 but the link did not exist or could not be found.

Infact, my example would seem similar to the turntable case in the write-up - and I have to do one of those as well!!! This is on a part of the track not shown.

So thanks for the link since it has given me something I can try with some confidence

[poliss]

I think you may have created more than three reverse loops because of the purple pointework near the top.

My advice would be to simplify the trackwork to remove the reverse loops.

[StephenD]

You should find parts 1 and 2 if you replace the hyphens with underscores, e.g. http://www.gaugemaster.com/articles/guides/reverse_loops_part1.html

N.B. The underscores are between the words "reverse" and "loops" and between "loops" and "part1", but areobscured by the underlining.

[96RAF]

I wonder why GM changed the link format 2/3 way through  _'s to -'s.

Well spotted Stephen.

[StephenD]

I've read those three articles now and, whilst they are relatively short, they have given me plenty of food for thought.  I feel that some re-design is worth considering, in order to include more reverse loops in my proposed layout, as my fiddle yard lines only provide for access from one end.

Thanks RAF for providing the link to these articles.

[96RAF]

It costs nothing to share ...

[2e0dtoeric]

Even MORE reverse loops? You are going to catch up with yourself before you get started!  :-)

[Ollie0033]

I am not quite sure I understand your reply poliss? You refer to purple pointwork at the top - if you mean the points before the reverse loop feed then these are fed from the main line - at least this was the intention since they are before the reverse loop 

[Fishmanoz]

I think I get what poliss is saying Ollie.  In the first instance, the 2 points at bottom right lead into a relatively simple double reversing loop plus sidings.  But then, the whole thing is made considerably more complex by the point in the top left of that double reversing loop that leads off to the track around the sidings with the engine shed.  That extends the reversing loops to return into the crossovers at the top of the purple track.

 

And at that point, my brain freezes over as to how you set up the isolated track sections and RLMs to run this.  Although, I think it can be done with just 2.  The first would have the whole lower left double loop isolated at the RH turnout tracks of the bottom right 2 points.  The second would cover as much as you like of the second offending loop around the sidings with the engine shed, starting inside the points at either end of it.  You don't need 2 isolated sections and RLMs, one for each of the double loops at the bottom as, in practice, the 2 point entries to these are so close only one train can be running across these points at the one time.  You might be able to run a couple of 0-4-0s in at the same time, but just don't and save the extra RLM.

 

By the way, I recognise this as being an Anyrail layout, all seeming to be made out of set track.  The first thing I would do would be to "improve" it by using a lot of Flexi track, including allowing Anyrail to design you easements leading into and out of your curves to make these work better.  That will make these curves take up a little more room, but I think you will be able to fit them in.  What's with that outside siding being on a 3.1% gradient too?

[StephenD]

Even MORE reverse loops? You are going to catch up with yourself before you get started!  :-)

I take your point but I hope it won't over-complicate things.  The layout type is end-to-end and, consequently, most of the sidings are dead-ends.  The only reverse loops are to cater for MGR trains.   HSTs and DMUs shouldn't be a problem (as they can be driven in either direction), but I've no way of turning loco-hauled trains, while still allowing them to access their allocated storage siding.  I don't expect to need Auto-Reverse Modules, as the trains will be stopping anyway, so an isolated section should suffice...I hope!

 

 

[RB51]

Hi StephenD - as others are assisting where possible with the RLM's I just wondered about the overall size of the layout, particularly will you be able to reach into the centre area to re-rail anything that comes off? R-

[StephenD]

Hi StephenD - as others are assisting where possible with the RLM's I just wondered about the overall size of the layout, particularly will you be able to reach into the centre area to re-rail anything that comes off? R-

The design is such that I should be able to reach everything.  To achieve that, I've included a gap in the fiddle yard boards and a duck-under, though due to increasing problems with 'arthuritis' (no, nothing to do with Guinness!), I may need to put in a lifting section rather than a duck-under.

 

 

[RB51]

Good to hear - hope you didn't mind my mentioning it. R-

[StephenD]

Good to hear - hope you didn't mind my mentioning it. R-

Of course not, Roger.  I'm grateful to you for wanting to help and before I'm finished I reckon I'm going to need an awful lot more of that!

 

 

[Woody52]

Hi Stephen/Ollie, I have to disagree with the others who are much more expert than I, but you actually only have 2 reverse sections. The middle loop and the short section in the middle that runs into it are both in the one reverse section as they are electrically isolated from the main layout but joined together.. If I was building this layout I would move the isolator  on that middle bit to the points at the other end of that short section of track. This would make that bit of track part of the main line wiring instead fo the reverse section wiring.

To answer your actual question, can you run all these reverse loops off the one reverse unit, YES you can, provided you only have one train entering or leaving all the reversed sections at any one time.

The reverse unit would be best powered either directly off the bus line or on wiring going back to the control unit. This is to complicated a layout to have the simple wiring you show. It may work for a while but will give you no end of trouble long term.

Hope this makes sense as I am not the best at explaining things.

Peter

[Fishmanoz]

Woody, I'm having a little trouble understanding your details as I can't identify which bits of track you mean.  However, I do understand the principle of what you are saying and it think it is similar to what RAF said in the 2nd post on this thread - if you can have just one isolated section no matter how many loops, you only need one RLM to control it.

 

The problem here arises because if more than one loco can enter or leave an isolated section at the same time, then an RLM can't cope as it is being asked to switch both ways at once.  And that is the case we have here as there are theoretically 3 ways to enter and leave at the same time at either of the points at the bottom right or the point where the loop around the engine shed sidings joins back to the main track.  But as I said at the top of this page, those 2 points at the bottom are adjacent to each other and it is not possible in practice to have more then one train entering or leaving at the same time on them. So effectively there are only two ways to enter or leave at the same time.

 

Because of these 2 ways, you have to divide your otherwise single isolated section into 2 and control it with 2 RLMs.  Which gets us back to what I said at the top of the page.

[Woody52]

The mauve and aqua tracks are now in the same reverse blocks and would operate off the same RLM. To operate off 2 RLMs you would have to also isolate the end of the mauve track where it connects to the aqua track. I would prefer to move the current isolation to where the mauve track joins the aqua and have the mauve part of the main supply. Again the operater would have to ensure that no 2 trains were entering or leaving any reverse sections at the same time. By trains I do mean entire trains as metal wheels conduct electricity across joins also. /media/tinymce_upload/c718217a26aabe264241c59836338642.jpg

Peter

[Woody52]

/media/tinymce_upload/336025bd1e7dc90c6a49ec57c0279c06.jpg

This is better than the previous one and would be safer to operate. Maximum safety with 2 RLM's or could be operated with one provided (AS BEFORE) only 1 TRAIN AT A TIME WAS ENTERING OR LEAVING A REVERSE SECTION. The track looping around the engine shed is not actually a reverse section if isolated at the points leading into the now green section..

Peter

[Ollie0033]

/media/tinymce_upload/336025bd1e7dc90c6a49ec57c0279c06.jpg

This is better than the previous one and would be safer to operate. Maximum safety with 2 RLM's or could be operated with one provided (AS BEFORE) only 1 TRAIN AT A TIME WAS ENTERING OR LEAVING A REVERSE SECTION. The track looping around the engine shed is not actually a reverse section if isolated at the points leading into the now green section..

Peter

Sorry for the late response but been away - Thanks guys for all the advice - somebody has gone to great lengths to replicate the layout and it has been a great help to see a different perspective - On my layout it is only planned to run in one train at a time therefore it gives me the confidence to start with one RLM. It was asked what the elevated section was for - well... - this is only part of the layout and the elevated section leads to an elevated station and town centre, used for trains that can only take radius 3 and 4, that then descends past an elevated container yard and onto the main track. On my original diagram you can see a point that leads on to this section and this is the entrance to this "fiddle yard" from the main tracks (too complex to show). If anybody is interested then I can send you the rest

John

 

 

[Ollie0033]

Thanks to everybody for their input - some of you have gone to great lenghts to replicate the track and ideas and it is much appreciated. I will only be running one train in at a time therefore I feel confident enough to start with one RLM and see how it goes from there

Somebody asked about the elevated track - well... this leads to an elevated station and town centre (used for trains with radius 3 and 4) that then descends again onto the main track. This elevated track also leads to a container and gravel yard for goods trains that is positioned above the main track

The main track leads to this fiddle yard from the points show on the orginal diagram - all a little too complex to show and would have only confused the original question - but if anybody is interested there is also a reverse loop on the elevated section as well!!!!

[Woody52]

Hi, I now share Roger's concerns in an earlier post that you wont have enough access to major areas of your layout. It would be hard enough during construction and a nightmare when running getting access to derailments and stalls. If you do build a layout of this conplexity the simple wiring you showed will not sufice. You realy need to start adding wiring into your plans. If this is a first layout then start out with a small temporary layout with a reverse loop so that you get a handle on what you need to do.

Good luck and keep the drean alive.

Peter

PS Not much work in what I did before.

[Ollie0033]

Just to say that I can access this part of the layout on 4 sides and have done the "arm measurement". Not shown on this diagram but also done with AnyRail, I have a further superimposed level that shows the wiring bus for track and separate one for points.

[Fishmanoz]

Then at least 3 brownie points for having done all of this planning before the ballast has dried.