choralc Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Have wired in droppers on my 'practice' layout but on connecting Elite after it begins the startup sequence it stops with the dreaded 'error' message which I'm assuming is a short. Disconnecting Elite and restarting makes a successful startup. So is there an easy way to find the short or do I have to disconnect every dropper and test after reconnecting say four at a time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walkingthedog Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Do you think you may have connected some droppers the wrong way round? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Did you colour code them and check continuity as you went along e.g. red and black bus wires and matching droppers.If not - I bet you wished you had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choralc Posted May 11, 2015 Author Share Posted May 11, 2015 Friends, I've used the terminal tags from DCC Concepts which have a plus and minus on each side. I've fed the black wires to the +ve side and the red wire to the -ve side and then also used red and black dropper wires to connect to the correct side. See the link for the tag: http://www.dccconcepts.com/dcc-control-and-wiring/dcc-layout-wire-and-wiring-accessories/pack-of-20x-dcc-tags I know my soldering skills are poor and I'll blame the tremors for that. I will use a magnifying glass tomorrow to make sure that black droppers go to +ve and red to -ve and then I'll inspect that solder or wires have not bridged the terminals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choralc Posted May 11, 2015 Author Share Posted May 11, 2015 And thank you Admin for moving my post so quickly. I dobbed myself in for posting to General Discussion :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walkingthedog Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 It's still possible to connect the droppers to the wrong side of the track though RAF especially on a circuit with sidings going in different directions. The best way to prevent that is to stick black tape on one side of a wagon and red in the other side and wheel the wagon around the track making sure the wire matches the tape. Other colours are available Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choralc Posted May 11, 2015 Author Share Posted May 11, 2015 RAF, this is my 'practice' layout to ... well... errr ... practice best ... ahhhh ... practice :) I've used 18 terminal tags with no more than 4 droppers on each so it won't be a very long job to disconnect all the droppers but definitely frustrating.By checking continuity do you mean say using a multimeter to make sure I don't get continuity between the +ve and negative as I reconnect the droppers? If so, I do wish I had done that as I went along :(hehe ... it's my 'practice' layout after all,Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 From the wire size I'm guessing those tags are not very big Andreas and could be a real pest to solder to.The only solution to any lack of skill is practice, practice and more practice. You may not become an expert but you will become competant enough.I have to use a mechanical aid to hold the bits together whilst I am soldering else I would make a right pigs ear of it. Its one of those comprising a stand with a magnifying glass and croc clips on the adjustable arms. Continuity checks - basically using either a meter or a simple battery, bulb and couple of fly leads to check that there is no connection at any point between the red and black sides. You can do this as you go along or in batches if disconnecting for checks so as to avoid having to disconnect every joint.WTD - my method exactly. I wheel a wagon round and mark up the dropper points on top of the board R or B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choralc Posted May 11, 2015 Author Share Posted May 11, 2015 WTD, I'll go out into the patio and turn on the light and try pushing a wagon around with some black tape on one side and report back if I think I have made a mistake with +ve and -ve. I was so sure I had that right, though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teedoubleudee Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Choralc, in your second post in this thread you said you connected red to negative and black to positive. Convention generally has these the other way round! Of course the colour of the wire makes no difference to the electrical properties and so long as you ensure you stick to your choice throughout you should have no problem. Just be aware in case you buy something in future that is conventionally colour coded. This only applies to DC wiring and is important for instance when using diodes or LEDs. If wiring a DCC bus it does not matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choralc Posted May 11, 2015 Author Share Posted May 11, 2015 Thanks TDD, I'll bear that in mind with the next layout unless I have a hissy fit with this one, hehe Yes I definitely followed the same sequence of black dropper to black bus wire and red to red. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choralc Posted May 11, 2015 Author Share Posted May 11, 2015 Well, I ran a little red wagon with black tape on one side and black was definitely on the rail I thought it would be. I have eye-balled all 12 sidings bar one and black and red droppers are on the correct track. For sections of flex track I have used a combination of droppers fitted to rail joiners (I've heard good and bad about this so I thought I'd give it a go) and droppers fitted to the middle or ends of track sections which will be relatively easy to check. Those around the set points will require some dexterity to lift enough to see what colour dropper is there but first I'll do what's easy to eyeball and then check the connections under the board for wires touching the wrong side tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poliss Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 First, find out if there actually is a short. If you check for electrical continuity at the first point where the leads from the controller join the bus then your multimeter shouldn't register anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choralc Posted May 11, 2015 Author Share Posted May 11, 2015 Thanks P's will get the multimeter on it first thing in the morning and check for continuity before I do anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teedoubleudee Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Regarding you comment on soldering to the fishplates (rail joiners) I would not recommend it. It may be easier to install but it doesn't get round the inherent problem with RJs providing continuity between sections of track. Also don't think of doing (as I did in my early efforts) of soldering the fishplates to the rails. Not only does it not allow for expansion if the layout is subject to wide temperature changes, but, as I found out it's a *** to get them apart again should you need to! On my layout, I put each piece of track down temporarily, chose a position suitable to drill the dropper holes bearing in mind what might be hiding underneath! I then marked the BB either side of both rails at the chosen point, removed the track and drilled the holes half way between the 2 marks (this way the hole will be directly under the rail and not be visible once laid permanently). Then solder the wires to the underside of each rail (you may need to remove some of the plastic webbing - if you do don't make a break on both sides at the same point), turn the wire through 90 degrees and carefully feed the dropper wire down through the holes as you join it to the previous secion. Job done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St1ngr4y Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Have wired in droppers on my 'practice' layout but on connecting Elite after it begins the startup sequence it stops with the dreaded 'error' message which I'm assuming is a short. Disconnecting Elite and restarting makes a successful startup. So is there an easy way to find the short or do I have to disconnect every dropper and then test after reconnecting say four at a time?What sort of points are you using ? Do you have any with electrofrogs ?Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
37lover Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Regarding you comment on soldering to the fishplates (rail joiners) I would not recommend it. It may be easier to install but it doesn't get round the inherent problem with RJs providing continuity between sections of track.changes, TWD,Horses for courses. I've got droppers soldered to nearly all my fishplates and don't have any continuity problems. This has been extensively discussed in the past and it's up to the User to weigh up ease vs risk. With feeds to the fishplates at each end of a track you would need both to fail. I found it much easier soldering to fishplates on my worktop and I was melting too many sleepers! I think both methods should give reliable operation; so I would leave it to the User to chose what they're happy with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graskie Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Coral Sea, perhaps I'm being a bit thick but what controller are you using and have you tried feeding your black wire from its red connector and vice versa, so as to reverse the polarity to what it should be? Or had you already done that initially? Please tell me if you don't think this would make any difference, you leccies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2e0dtoeric Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Apart from being non-conventional, black = Pos and red = neg, it wouldn't make any difference, Graskie.If it were a dc layout, then everything would run backwards! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poliss Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 I'm talking about continuity where there shouldn't be any, 37, between left and right rails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
37lover Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 I'm talking about continuity where there shouldn't be any, 37, between left and right rails. Poliss,Why are you mentioning my name? If that's what the 37 refers to! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poliss Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Just to avoid any confusion thay may occur with the contimuity you were talking about and the kind I was referring to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graskie Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 I agree with you, 37lovers, about soldering to the underside of fishplates before joining them up to trackwork either side. I have done that and had no problems at all because of that method over 20 years now. I don't wire to every fishplate either. It's much easier to solder to fishplates like that than preferably the underside of track rails which seem to require more prolonged heating, no doubt mainly because of heat dissipation along their length, which, as you say, can easily then melt or at least distort any adjacent plastic sleepers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teedoubleudee Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Regarding you comment on soldering to the fishplates (rail joiners) I would not recommend it. It may be easier to install but it doesn't get round the inherent problem with RJs providing continuity between sections of track.changes, TWD,Horses for courses. I've got droppers soldered to nearly all my fishplates and don't have any continuity problems. This has been extensively discussed in the past and it's up to the User to weigh up ease vs risk. With feeds to the fishplates at each end of a track you would need both to fail. I found it much easier soldering to fishplates on my worktop and I was melting too many sleepers! I think both methods should give reliable operation; so I would leave it to the User to chose what they're happy with. Please yourself mate. I'm glad you have had no failures to date but the laws of probabilty regarding 2 pieces of metal just pushed together against a properly constructed fusion of metal says to me which is likely to fail first. I gave my opinion based on accepted best practice and you have given yours based on your own personal experience so, as you say, let the OP decide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poliss Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 See what NMRA member and professional electrical engineer says about 'anecdotal evidence'. Especially "Hey I wired my layout this way and it worked!"https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/dcc-general-best-practices/wiring-planing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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