Windows 10

[electrolite]

Will an update be needed to run railmaster on windows 10 which is due out very soon

[Chrissaf]

The following is a paste from an earlier thread. The full thread can be read here.

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I have put RM 1.56 on a VM running windows 10 preview and it appears to work so far.

Only used it to do a bit of programming and I have had one of the lost connection to the elink errors but it reconnected immediatly I clicked the green tick.

It didn't work at all on this machine with windows 8.1 pro.

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Not conclusive proof, but infers no RM updates are needed for W10 (VM = Virtual Machine).

[WilliamDavid]

Does that mean that the impending free Windows update to 10 will not mess up my e-link, presently on 7?

[Chrissaf]

It's really too early to start asking and answering these type of questions. No one yet has any real experience of what and won't happen. As we've seen with Win 8x, some people have issues, some do not. One person's post on loading Win 10 Preview and it working(ish) is no guarantee that nobody will experience issues. Wait for end of July. Monitor the forum RM section and see what the 'guinea pig upgraders' report.

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Be patient, because regardless of being an RM user or not. I would suspect most potential upgraders will still wait a couple of months or so before taking the plunge. I will be looking not at the Hornby forum but at Windows forums to see what is happening in the real world with regard to the migration to Win10. I would want to see that upgrades in general are going smoothly for generic Window users first before looking at RM specifically.

[Fishmanoz]

An answer from HRMS would be good. Surely you've been beta testing 10 to make sure there are either no problems or you already have an upgrade waiting to go?

[Augustus Caesar]

You should have little or no problem running RM on Windows 10 whether straight away or waiting for updates. The only caveat I would give is don't use the pre-release Windows 10. That's for obvious reasons.

What we need to realise here is that Windows is not the villain with RM when anyone has issues with it. The chances of it being a non starter with Win XP, Vista, 7 or 8/8.1 and even 10, are remote if the OS and RM are installed correctly and updated on a regular basis and no software like McAfee or Norton stuff is installed. I run my version through a server and it is also networked via a master and slave. This all works very well and Windows issues don't get in the way. It is nearly always down to the system when issues are encountered and the setup of Windows and other software besides and more rarely the hardware.

It has been stated on here several times before by different members.

RM itself doesn't particularly use Windows files that are likely to cause disruption. Yes, it uses a few ActiveX controls which may cause a problem within themselves because of their very nature but as far as I know no .dll (direct link library) files are used which can be far more volatile.

More and more software these days are becoming Windows OS independant (these are your apps you find on Win8 and phones etc - lighter versions of full software sometimes).

 

Now I know I may be leaving myself open to be reprimanded for saying all this (well, a little tap with a ruler maybe :-) ) but in the all the years I have developed for Windows and lots more besides I cannot see RM being the kind of program that will struggle with Win 10 especially as the OS is based on the previous engines anyway to a good extent.

Tell you what I will do... be a guinea pig for those who are worried when Win 10 is released... I will upgrade my small laptop which runs Win 8.1 at this moment in time and upon official release I will install Win10 over it with RM still installed. This is the laptop I use for RM anyway so nothing can be lost. If there are issues I will hold my hands up and say.. "Woah... that wasn't good!"... but if I am right I will post here and on the Help Site to let you all know.

If it goes belly up I will simply reinstall my version of Win 8.1 which is pants but will do for RM. I am confident it will work well though...

So roll on July and the official release... :-) the date is my diary so I can get down to work on this straight away...

[St1ngr4y]

Nice one, AC, I'll look forward to your report.

Ray

[Fishmanoz]

Agree with Ray AC, nice one.  And what I expected without going into the detail including that the current driver will also work.

[RDS]

Thanks AC.  Mind you, I am still to be convinced that there is anything better than XP for my main PC!

[Teedoubleudee]

"One volunteer is better than ten pressed men"

 

Good on ya AC

[96RAF]

As I will be back in UK for most of July and August and will only have my XP laptop to play with, then I am sure that you lot will have sorted out all the Win 10 problems by the time I get back to update my train pc on the island.

I will watch with great interest.

[PJR_slo]

... but as far as I know no .dll (direct link library) files are used which can be far more volatile.

 

 Hi AC

 

Apologies, I have to pick you up on a couple of your points:

 

DLL = Dynamic Link Library.  These simply contain a collection of procedures and functions which can be called from other DLLs and executable software.  There is no reason why DLLs should be "more volatile" than the executables which use them.

 

RM and almost every other program makes use of DLL files - especially those provided by Microsoft.

 

Unfortunately, there is an issue with the manner in which RM accesses certain files and folders, hence the requirement to "Run as Administrator".  This situation was introduced by MS in Vista and has worstened with each major operating system release since.  I currently have no idea what the situation will be with Windows 8.

 

Basically, the MS software production guidelines suggest using alternative folders for data storage, as having standard write access to MS protected folders can leave users open to various malware and virus attacks.  In this respect, it would be ideal if we were able to choose the install and data locations of the software.

 

This situation is the main cause of the debate regarding the "best" O/S ; Windows 7 is (theoretically) much better than XP, but XP was better in terms of user experience (for some users).

 

And although I am in agreement with your assessment regarding certain Anti-Virus solutions, I would advise caution when openly discussing this particular subject.

 

Peter

 

 

 

[Augustus Caesar]

... but as far as I know no .dll (direct link library) files are used which can be far more volatile.

 Hi AC

 

Apologies, I have to pick you up on a couple of your points:

 

DLL = Dynamic Link Library.  These simply contain a collection of procedures and functions which can be called from other DLLs and executable software.  There is no reason why DLLs should be "more volatile" than the executables which use them.

 

RM and almost every other program makes use of DLL files - especially those provided by Microsoft.

 

Unfortunately, there is an issue with the manner in which RM accesses certain files and folders, hence the requirement to "Run as Administrator".  This situation was introduced by MS in Vista and has worstened with each major operating system release since.  I currently have no idea what the situation will be with Windows 8.

 

Basically, the MS software production guidelines suggest using alternative folders for data storage, as having standard write access to MS protected folders can leave users open to various malware and virus attacks.  In this respect, it would be ideal if we were able to choose the install and data locations of the software.

 

This situation is the main cause of the debate regarding the "best" O/S ; Windows 7 is (theoretically) much better than XP, but XP was better in terms of user experience (for some users).

 

And although I am in agreement with your assessment regarding certain Anti-Virus solutions, I would advise caution when openly discussing this particular subject.

 

Peter

 

 

Hi Peter

I don't mind being picked up on points at all. However, I must say I have to come back with a reply to point out a thing or two.

I know perfectly well what a .dll file is and what it does. I have written programs using them for years and the reason I say they can be very volatile is simple. When you put them next to an .exe file on their own they are equally volatile... however, an .exe file is called once in any run of a program whereas a .dll file can be called once or a hundred times. Therefore my comment saying they are more volatile is just to say that they are called more often and used more often so therefore a problem is more likely to arise. It's a simple play on words and how they are interpreted when read.

RM using .dll's... I did not make myself clear unfortunately. I meant that RM has no files as such as far as I can tell in its own makeup. The vast majority of programs still use them including RM. So for any confusion there I hold up my hands.

The program itself seems to be built with Visual Basic and thus this is one of the main reasons for the run as admin and folder requirements. I didn't mention any of this on my post though.

As for the Vista and worsening folder access issue since its release... I strongly disagree. Windows 7 is a much improved version of Windows and is close to XP for technical guys and normal user usage. The Access Control rubbish introduced with Vista, as you say, is poor but it certainly was no worse in Windows 7, in fact it far better, and is even less as bad in Windows 8. By far Vista was the poorest in this respect.

When Microsoft offer guidance on how to save data away from their standard folders why do they insist on making those standard folders the default save areas then? I've not known Mocrosoft go out of their way to suggest this. They may offer that advice to indivduals who have issues over the phone etc. but not as a whole unless those individuals say otherwise on forums to try and gain favour (I'm not suggesting by the way you are doing this.. :-) Not at all).

I really don't think hackers and virus or trojan authors are too stupid to simply write a program or routine to just look in Microsoft standard save folders either. They would be looking at anything other than that too. So the advice from MS is simply next to useless.

XP better for user experience? I would doubt that. Windows XP started off very poorly. It was lambasted by millions. Slowly though it began to recover simply because of Windows 98 being outdated and Windows Me (98's successor) being so disgustingly bad MS had no choice but to get its finger out. Drivers were very slow to appear but once vendors knew XP was going to be around for a while their confidence returned and drivers were eventually built. MS also brought out a 64 bit version of XP and vendors had to gauge which would take off. It was the old 32 bit version that outsold its partner by some huge distance. Then came Service Packs 1, 2 and 3 which further fixed XP in the market. Working alongside Small Business Server 2003 it sat extremely well with businesses. The latter took a long time to move away from these and only in the days since MS decided enough was enough for XP, Office XP and SBS 2003 at the same time did things begin to change. Some large businesses here (UK) refuse to move away from SBS 2003 and Win XP until they improve Server 2012 which is slow and pretty bad. So while XP improved like a good wine over time it certainly wasn't great when it appeared. It is on a par with Windows 7 and both have good or bad points. Personal taste dictates which one a user is more comfortable with. I won't push OS's on anyone unless they want me to build a server and client PC's then I will advise for each version of Windows that will run with the server software of their choice. It's their money after all.

While discussing this particular subject I don't particularly need to exercise caution. I am well versed in the IT business as I have stated on other forums and other threads in this forum. I do advise members but I never TELL them to do a particular thing. If I think for one minute that I am talking nonsense then I erase that text before posting and thus will not mislead anyone even unintentionally. One thing I tell my clients when they say to me that they know little about computers is that "Everyone has their level". I know nothing about cars or their innards and would not expect a mechanic to blind me with their knowledge.

On here it is slightly different. I do understand some folk are not too technically savvy but others are and I have to talk to 'everyone' when talking even to one person with a specific answer.

All texts on this post are not to be taken out of context nor a rebuke to your own words Peter so please do not take it that way. I merely try to show I do have tons of experience in IT on all sides of it and have been in this game since the eighties. I am no expert and neither are most of us on this forum as we will all readily admit no doubt. Otherwise all problems would be solved and there would be no need for this forum.

A pretty long response to your reply Peter so I apologise for that. I do understand everyone has an opinion but I always try and believe that no-one is right every time but can be most of the time.

[PJR_slo]

Hi AC

 

Again, I agree with what you are saying but there are a couple of points you have missed or misunderstood in my reply. 

 

My point regarding usability was merely that there are many users out there very happy with XP and are simply not wishing to upgrade further.  Yes, they are missing out on some elements of the later O/Ss, but (like me) they would probably find the transition somewhat arduous.

 

As you are aware with the recent O/Ss, logging on as an Administrator does not now give full admin rights and writing to certain folders is denied by default.  MS introduced this as an attempt to prevent infected software being run (by an admin user) from updating executables within the system and program folders.

 

MS also introduced the "Users" folder where "AppData", temporary files, programs and the like could write unhindered.  Their programming guidelines made quite clear their intentions in this respect.

 

Running programs "as Administrator" to by-pass the MS intentions is not a good idea, especially because when those programs are internet connected; they have direct write-access to folders MS have otherwise attempted to protect.

 

I have also found that UAC has been somewhat amended and strengthened in each O/S since Vista; originally it was very wrong and regularly turned off.  I have not as yet had the opportunity to test Windows 10 in this regard, but I hope to be doing so very soon.

 

Peter

[Augustus Caesar]

Hi Peter

I think we both maybe misunderstood what each other were getting at. But it's not important...

I now realise you weren't actually talking about folders such as Documents, Pictures etc but the protected folders. It is very easy to misread something through text and is far simpler to understand when the spoken word is used.

We were both correct in what we were saying and now we have clarified what the other meant we can move on from that unless expansion is required or a further point is brought up by another member.

In one of my other posts I said I would probably never upgrade to Win 10 but later on in another I said I would upgrade to it purely for experimentation for those with RM who want to know it is good to go. This on a laptop with Win 8.1 and RM running on it. I will stick to that and just in case I do forget to do this straight away anyone should send me a gentle reminder to pull my socks up!!

Thanks for your clarification Peter...

[RobinJ]

Project Centennial will make railmaster work very well on windows 10 if they choose to do things properly and dont want to completly rewrite the program. They will have to move the file save locations to appropriate folders though and use the store upgrade mechanism, this will most probably solve the need to run as administrator. Oh and stop saving secret files to improper locations.

Also, if they decided to change the USB HID & PID to use the new windows 10 inbox driver (which should be a lot more stable than USBSER, then things would be dandy!) more info here: https://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2015/3-81

Here is to dreaming!

[Augustus Caesar]

Ah Robin... dreaming... we all do that... and for many things in life, but sadly they don't always come true. We will have to wait and see with Windows 10 but as usual some members will have issues and some won't.