0-6-0 Problems Over Points

[pidge456]

Hi everyone, I have read a few topics on this forum regarding smaller 0-6-0 type loco's having problems over points (Hornby points with plastic parts). I have a similar issue with my 0-6-0 from the mixed freight set, it regularly stops on points. I want to use smaller loco's on my layout to haul wagons/goods. but with the 0-6-0 its very frustrating. Does this issue persist with other configurations ie 0-6-2, 2-6-2 etc or does it depend on the individual loco. I was looking at locos with combined tenders ie 0-4-4 M7 Class (R3129) or 0-6-2 N2 Class (R3188) as examples. Just dont want to buy something to replace my 0-6-0 if its going to do the same thing over the points.

[Teedoubleudee]

Hi, With a couple of exceptions I only run 0-4-0 and 0-6-0 locos. I assume you are using Hornby points as you said you bought  the set. Hornby only supply Insulated frog points which means there is a small dead section at the place where the point divides. On long wheelbase locos where the pickups are spread more widely this is not a problem but on these shorter wheelbase locos it can be, especially at low speed. Apart from making sure ALL pickups are making good contact and running the locos a little faster, the only alternative is to use electrified frog points such as the Peco range of "electrofrog" ones. This does however,  involve a little additional wiring and a suitable point operated switch to work correctly.

[Teedoubleudee]

To add to my reply above and address your specific question, generally the bogie wheels do not have pickups so don't improve the situation.

[tony_forward]

Hi Pidge

Hornby points with plastic parts, are the same as peco ones! You are of course referring to 'insulfrog' points which can, and do, cause problems with some short wheelbase locos, it depends on the number and spacing of pickups on the wheels I'm afraid and with my limited knowledge of 060 and 040 042 locos I cant give you a definitive answer. 

I do know that a Thomas 060 received by me stalls on both hornby and peco points whereas my now defunct 042 14xx (ex Airfix now Hornby) doesn't (or at least disn't before the chip died)

[Huwsie]

I have another solution.. what I have done is permanently couple a small wagon behind 0-4-0 & 0-6-0 locos, with that small wagon adapted and wired to have pick-ups from both sets of wheels, with small cables then running into the loco, so both the loco wheel sets and the wagon wheel sets are pick-ups all wired to a common point within the loco. This hepls a lot, but to be honest, the real answer is electrofrog points - these are unquestionably better in terms of connection, and smoothness when the trains pass over them - there's no 'dip' as the wheels fall into the work plastic frog. I'm in the process of replacing all points with electrofrog. They are a little more expensive, and need to be wired in properly, but if you also install a motor and a switch, it's very well worth the extra cost and effort.

[coombslane]

I have two of these locos and they both cross Hornby points without jerking or stopping, two things to check are, make sure the pickups are making good contact with the wheels, also check and make sure the points are dead flat on the layout, I had the same problem but once I relayed the points the problem was solved, I slowly replaced the points with Peco points, also have you got the DCCpower clips attached to the points?.

Hope this helps,, even the little 0.4.0 locos crawl through points without stalling when care is taken laying the track, I have half a dozen of these locos that have been converted to DCC and have no trouble at all.

[Nick_]

I had the same problem with a couple of short wheel-base locos sometimes stalling on insu-frog points. The pick-up on all wheels were checked to be OK. It does seem some people and some locos have this problem, some don't. I resolved it by fitting DCC decoders with keep-alive to the two locos with problems and now they are fine. Yes the decoders are more expensive, but it is a lot cheaper than having to replace all the points on my layout with electro-frog. In fact if you've used Hornby points (or Peco set-track points) you would have to completely re-lay your layout to fit electro-frog points because they are a different length and a different curve!

BTW - I can recommend TCS DCC decoders, the stay-alive work really well. I found DCC concepts decoders with stay-alive didn't work to resolve the stalling issue and indeed DCC Concepts state their stay-alive is not for that purpose.

I really do think it would be in Hornby's interest to upgrade their DCC decoders to add a stay-alive with just enough power to get stalling locos across their insu-frog points. I can't see it adding more than pence to the cost. Alternatively, I suppose, they could re-design their points!

[Teedoubleudee]

BTW - I can recommend TCS DCC decoders, the stay-alive work really well.

 

Hi Nick, do you mean the "KA" range? Where do you buy from as they are not cheap?

[walkingthedog]

Make sure points are perfectly flat. They can slightly bow. I usually add a track pin near the centre. 

[Nick_]

@TDD

Yes, either the KAM4 (integrated keep-alive) or a decoder with -KA after the name plus a KA1 or KA2 keep-alive. You need to take care as to what will fit because they are all fairly bulky. I made cardboard space models to make sure I had room first. I got mine mail-order from Costal DCC in Ipswich.They are fairly pricey but as I only have a couple of locos with problems it was cheaper than redesigning and re-laying my entire layout with electro-frog points!

[Nick_]

Deleted duplicate post

[walkingthedog]

If you need to spend 30 odd quid each time you buy a loco surely new points would be cheaper in the end..

[Teedoubleudee]

If you need to spend 30 odd quid each time you buy a loco surely new points would be cheaper in the end..

 

Only if they solved the problem WTD

[Teedoubleudee]

@TDD

Yes, either the KAM4 (integrated keep-alive) or a decoder with -KA after the name plus a KA1 or KA2 keep-alive. You need to take care as to what will fit because they are all fairly bulky. I made cardboard space models to make sure I had room first. I got mine mail-order from Costal DCC in Ipswich.They are fairly pricey but as I only have a couple of locos with problems it was cheaper than redesigning and re-laying my entire layout with electro-frog points!

 

Hi Nick,  Yes I found Coastal to be the cheapest when "Googling" yesterday. I used to live 12 miles from Ipswich but never been to Coastal    Doh!

[walkingthedog]

I have no problem with them. Even my tiny Electrotren 0-6-0 locos cross them OK. Only loco that stuttered was the Sentinel 0-4-0 so I added a wagon with pickups. 

[doug_colbeck]

I am experiencing the same problem and I think I have found the cause but I am not sure how to do a solution.

 

Checking the voltage around all parts of the track and it is consistent (15.8v) - so no problem there

 

Checking the voltage from the pick-ups to the motor - same as the track (15.8v), even while experiencing crossing a point -so no problem there

 

Checked the voltage from the capacitor to the motor and it drops to 5.0v. I am wondering if the motor is simply not getting the power it needs to get through a set of points?

 

Would removing the capacitor improve performance or kill the chip?

Any comments or advice welcome.

[Michael_A]

I am experiencing the same problem and I think I have found the cause but I am not sure how to do a solution.

 

Checking the voltage around all parts of the track and it is consistent (15.8v) - so no problem there

 

Checking the voltage from the pick-ups to the motor - same as the track (15.8v), even while experiencing crossing a point -so no problem there

 

Checked the voltage from the capacitor to the motor and it drops to 5.0v. I am wondering if the motor is simply not getting the power it needs to get through a set of points?

 

Would removing the capacitor improve performance or kill the chip?

Any comments or advice welcome.

You cannot expect the same voltage across the motor as across the track.

 

The 15 Volts you measure across the track is the DCC supply voltage which carries also the DCC control pulses. What you measure across the motor is the output of the decoder and will be different. (It's a high frequency pulse width modulated voltage which is also impossible to measure accurately with a meter)

 

You can remove the capacitors across the motor as they are not needed with a DCC decoder fitted, however, not sure that will really help. I always leave them in just in case I want to return it to non DCC in future.

[doug_colbeck]

Good point Michael_A, I think I will leave the capaciters in the model.

I have removed some of the plastic in the frog to allow the wheels to move through without being raised and I also ground some of the plastic down level with the rails to also stop the wheels lifting. This has made it a little better but still the middle wheel lifts either the front or rear wheel on the same side, clear of the track, stopping the loco.  :(

If the centre wheel could be lifted by as little as half a millimetre it might stop this happening. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to do that without derstroying the model?

[john_doman]

Hi everyone, I have read a few topics on this forum regarding smaller 0-6-0 type loco's having problems over points (Hornby points with plastic parts). I have a similar issue with my 0-6-0 from the mixed freight set, it regularly stops on points. I want to use smaller loco's on my layout to haul wagons/goods. but with the 0-6-0 its very frustrating. Does this issue persist with other configurations ie 0-6-2, 2-6-2 etc or does it depend on the individual loco. I was looking at locos with combined tenders ie 0-4-4 M7 Class (R3129) or 0-6-2 N2 Class (R3188) as examples. Just dont want to buy something to replace my 0-6-0 if its going to do the same thing over the points.

 I have recently purchased the new model 08 diesel, with sound. The wheel configuration is closer than the old 08, which should mean more issues, however it runs like a dream, even at snail's pace. I suspect that they may have re-designed the pickups, not sure, however it performs superbly, over Hornby and Peco insulfrog points. I also have an old 08 diesel from the mixed freight set that has real issues with the points.