Windows 10

[Nick_]

Guys, we seem to be going round in circles here...

The people who support Railmaster are HornbyRailMasterSupport (HRMS), not Hornby themselves. HRMS have stated that the current version of RailMaster was tested with Win10 on using both eLink and Elite and on the computers they tested it on, it worked. It is also apparent that for some people, possibly most people RailMaster is working fine on Win10. It is also quite clear that for some people it isn't (and I'm pretty certain that HRMS do know that!). They did suggest that, as a current user, unless you absolutely had to, it was worth waiting a while before upgrading to Win10 to allow bugs to be discovered and fixed.

Just before Win10 was released both HRMS and Adam (ADMIN) were indicating a new version of Railmaster was almost ready for release. HRMS then stated that they would be delaying it just in case there were any Win10 issues that came to light. As we haven't seen the update yet I think it is reasonable to assume that HRMS are trying to understand why, for some people, the USB serial connection to the eLink is failing and doing their best to find out why and make the connection more robust. They have suggested various configuration changes which have fixed problems for some people, so to suggest they are doing nothing it a little unfair. Hardware interface problems are the single most difficult problem to resolve, especially if you do not have control over the driver software. So cut the guys at HRMS some slack and I’m sure we will see a full fix soon. I’d rather they were spending their effort trying to resolve problems than responding with interim updates here.

[Yelrow]

Tony, you and me both, if it aint broke. What would be of interest, is the makes of laptop that are causing this problem. Clearly, only a certain  number, as there are NO concerted screams coming by way of the net, and there would be, if this was a large problem. Likewise with other forums, where nobody, is complaining. of any elink probs. I, as you, hope that no newcomers are facing problems.. On your final point about windows 11, and 12, 10, is supposed to be it. Microsoft are busy changing things to Licencing, where you rent Word, Paint shop pro, and other packages, in the  future, even windows 10. This apparently, is the way ahead, i am reliably informed by my son in Dallas, although support for windows 7, will continue for 5 years. I suppose change was inevitable, nothing stands still. john

[Augustus Caesar]

AC I think you may have misunderstood what I was trying to say. The USB port driver that appears in Device Manager is generic. It is not specific to any USB device. Developers use to write drivers for their devices, hence why Hornby provided drivers for Vista and earlier versions of Windows. As you have pointed out the USB drivers provided for Windows 7, 8, 8.1 and 10 are all produced by MicroChip Technologies. Not Microsoft.   

 All quite correct and yes I knew all that... but I didn't misunderstand what you were saying... or at least I didn't mean to give that impression.

 

The current breed of USB driver sets up the path over which communication between the device and the computer happens. If you like it lays the track. Nothing else. The actual communication between the device and the computer program (elink and Railmaster) is set up by the software contained within the firmware on the elink device and the Railmaster software. It is here that the problem lies in my opinion. Clearly there is an incompatibility problem between Windows 10 and Railmaster/elink and it is one that even the Windows compatibility wizard doesn’t solve.  

It is also my belief that if the driver works well then the issue is with coding on the eLink chipset (its firmware in other words... I have said that already)

 

If as I suspect this is a compatibility issue and not a driver issue, then it is possible that Hornby (or their developers) have overlooked a change in the way a Windows API their application calls works and not made the necessary changes to their programme.  

 Without having the stripped down code in front of us from the driver and chipset I just simply err on the side of caution and I am fully aware that there could very easily be an issue with both the driver and the firmware. It is very easy to say that the firmware has the only fault here. If it IS just that then ALL eLink units wouldn't work as the same firmware is held on each unit. Anyway, I still say it could be one, the other or both.

It is also interesting that people are reporting more (though not complete) success with the Hornby Elite and Railmaster. The firmware on these devices is of course different and this could indicate that at least part of the problem is the firmware in the elink device.  

 And also the Elite as not all are working as you say yourself above.

Your reference to the YouTube video is interesting, but not relevant. As the YouTube page says the bug was corrected in Windows 10 Preview Build 9860 and that was released on or before 29 October 2014. I don’t know what you have but my build version is 10240. Also the video demonstrates that communication IS working over the link. It is only when the device is unplugged the problem happens.  

 The heading there says the bug was fixed but the rest of the text and video show it wasn't. The heading is not meant to read the bug is fixed! I made that mastake also when I read it first time. You have to separate that heading fron the rest.

My build is the same as yours. Yes, the link is broken when the USB socket is unplugged. that's the problem... it shouldn't be. They are trying to show that this driver, over many years, has never really been right. Just take a look around at all the issues re programming around this driver.

Regardless, assuming Hornby see a future for Railmaster and elink it is in their interest to get to the cause of the problem as soon as possible and not hope that some future bug fix to Windows 10 will solve the it for them. 

It is for Hornby as a company and their developers to fix this problem. It is their hardware the driver has to talk to and the Elite and eLink firmware.

So I am not disagreeing with you John... far from it. I think all the research and knowledge gained about this and other stuff while looking at this issue has been both informative for myself and maybe one or two others. So it hasn't been a waste of time as far as I can say personally. It depends on each persons level of interest I suppose.

One thing I have said before on this forum it is so easy to read stuff in a way that is not intended when it is written and maybe sometimes I am guilty as others as not quite putting words down as I think them... :-) Thus the misunderstanding and misinterpretation... but at least we all get there in the end!

[Augustus Caesar]

Twenty nine pages of waffle!

all goes to show that no one should EVER take a Microsoft upgrade until it has been in general use for at least 6 months - possibly even longer!

The people I feel sorry for are those as stated above that buy a new laptop/PC in the coming weeks and find that RM/E-link doesnt work with W10.

Having said that, there are those that have it working, so what are they doing right?

Bearing in mind that my W7/elink combo is working fine on 1.61 rev 2, my own intention is to leave W10 as long as possible, even perhaps not even doing the upgrade ever, on the RM laptop after all, going by past experience W11, 12 etc., will be along in due course!

 

Can't agree with the 29 pages of waffle. It depends upon each members level of interest as to whether or not they think all this is waffle. Out of all the text that has been written and research that has been done and then your post Tony... what if the next post has a solution based on what is written above in those 29 pages? If research isn't done at all anywhere and conversations like this not happened, ever, then we'd all still be sitting around a boiling pot with loin cloths on sipping buffalo wine. I don't disrespect what you are saying but please allow those who wish to do some stuff like this and chat about it the time and place to do so. This is PRECISELY why Hornby have allowed this forum to happen. They get the feedback and offer help to sort out issues as they go along. OK some aren't done immediately but that's the nature of the business.

I do have sympathy too for those with new Windows 10 machines and they find when they get home that their beloved eLink and RM don't work. But if we weren't here doing this they too would have more struggles and less opportunity than they do coming on here and reading about this so they can at least see some work and effort going into a possible fix. So... waffle? Definitely not.

[RAINESCOLIN]

What I don't understand and perhaps someone can explain to me is this, Going to the RAILMASTER program in C there is a folder called ELINK 106, this will update the ELINK controller firmware to version 1.06. When using the update WINDOWS is communicating with the ELINK by re-booting it several times until firmware update is complete yet when starting the RAILMASTER program this Starts to start ELINK then seems to skip to the DCC CONTROLLER which I have never had so my system will not communicate with my layout because there is no DCC CONTROLLER. 

[RDS]

... Can't agree with the 29 pages of waffle ...

Neither can I.

This thread has made for very interesting and informative reading and in fact the solution for my 'Elite icon greyed out' came on page 26.

I am very grateful to all those who have helped and tried to help.  Here's to the next 29 pages and of course reading it is not compulsory, it is up to the individual.

 

[Augustus Caesar]

Tony, you and me both, if it aint broke. What would be of interest, is the makes of laptop that are causing this problem. Clearly, only a certain  number, as there are NO concerted screams coming by way of the net, and there would be, if this was a large problem. Likewise with other forums, where nobody, is complaining. of any elink probs. I, as you, hope that no newcomers are facing problems.. On your final point about windows 11, and 12, 10, is supposed to be it. Microsoft are busy changing things to Licencing, where you rent Word, Paint shop pro, and other packages, in the  future, even windows 10. This apparently, is the way ahead, i am reliably informed by my son in Dallas, although support for windows 7, will continue for 5 years. I suppose change was inevitable, nothing stands still. john

Hi John...

I don't think, with all due respect to Hornby, that they have sold enough across a wide enough userbase on any forum for a loud scream to be heard. Their sales are in the tens of thousands but no more as yet. We won't ever get screams like those that are heard for mobile phones made by the likes of those who have a bite taken out of their logo for example.

With Windows 10 it is different. There are huge areas of concern already from a massive user base worldwide and while some of those concerns are not sigificant enough and are user based there are many more that are hugely important.

The issues here with RM/eLink etc and whatever is causing the problem is unlikely to be spotted 'across the board' as many folk believe a driver at fault, many believe the firmware, others believe both and the rest believe this, that and the other. So it may be difficult to pick a pattern. A lot of users will simply just sit and wait. It happens every time a new MS OS pops up. Users just sit on it knowing somewhere along the line there'll be a fix. In the meantime they make do.

As for licensing... we'll see. Nothing has been decided as yet until MS know what the takeup is on this new, and wonderfully infallible OS!!! :-) So, to go with your advice... I am downgrading again to Win 8.1 so I can at least forget about this issue for a while and see what happens re Hornby, HRMS, Microchip Tech and MS themselves! If I do test again I will do so from a Windows 7 laptop I have that could do with a clean out of several unwanted and unused testing programs! Looking forward to that then... :-)

[Augustus Caesar]

What I don't understand and perhaps someone can explain to me is this, Going to the RAILMASTER program in C there is a folder called ELINK 106, this will update the ELINK controller firmware to version 1.06. When using the update WINDOWS is communicating with the ELINK by re-booting it several times until firmware update is complete yet when starting the RAILMASTER program this Starts to start ELINK then seems to skip to the DCC CONTROLLER which I have never had so my system will not communicate with my layout because there is no DCC CONTROLLER. 

This is the issue we are all talking about Colin. What you don't say is what OS you are using... Win 7/8/8.1 or 10?

If it is the latter then you have joined many others who cannot get the communication between the eLink and RM going. There isn't a problem, or shouldn't be, with the former three OS's.

What it may suggest is the theory about the firmware on the eLink being at fault as suggested clearly by John Wilson ealier and myself in a roundabout way without saying as much until later on.

When a program, as you suggest, updates any firmware then that program alone has access to the chips in the item being upgraded. In the case of the eLink unit the program merely writes the new data to the firmware chip inside the eLink and does not touch any other coding at all. When the eLink reboots and settles down it then starts the process of accessing code or instructions from outside of itself. This is where the breakdown occurs. So, if any code is not written correctly to the eLink during the upgrade and is corrupted then all kinds of problems can persist afterward and the whle process must be done again until a clean upgrade is achieved.

Does that help?

[Yelrow]

AC, very interesting. You are right about the huge concerns mainly across the pond. hence my IT sons advice to remain with 7. I note your view about licencing, but must bow to my lad, who works within the closed circle, where it is common knowledge, its a bit like Loco Definition, on the horizon,. hence the free update. Time will tell. He shares your cynicism of OS.  Be interested in your return to 8.1, as , if you remember, that bricked my disabled lads laptop, all be it, to windows 7, taking, some time, and a wiped, and reinstalled. windows 7 disc, to put right. Fortunately, i have a microsoft  colleague, who managed this, and kept the partition intact. Even managed manually to extract photos .john

[RAINESCOLIN]

AC, this was using Wndows 10 which these pages should really be related.ColinR

[john_wilson1]

Got a bulk standard reply from Railmaster Support today. Everything they suggest I have already done. Not very impressed.

 

However I have tried something new. I reinstalled the 1.06 firmware on my elink. After the reinstall had finished I disconnected elink and powered it down. I reconnected the elink, powered it up and ran Railmaster in the way HRMS tell you to and this time I got no error messages. It appeared to be working. However, when I try to do something like read a loco's CV's I am told there is no DCC Controller attached, even though there were no previous error messages. I've tried this several times tonight with exactly the same result. No handshake error message. No error message at all until you try to use the controller functionality. This is sounding more and more like a problem with the elink device.

[Augustus Caesar]

AC, very interesting. You are right about the huge concerns mainly across the pond. hence my IT sons advice to remain with 7. I note your view about licencing, but must bow to my lad, who works within the closed circle, where it is common knowledge, its a bit like Loco Definition, on the horizon,. hence the free update. Time will tell. He shares your cynicism of OS.  Be interested in your return to 8.1, as , if you remember, that bricked my disabled lads laptop, all be it, to windows 7, taking, some time, and a wiped, and reinstalled. windows 7 disc, to put right. Fortunately, i have a microsoft  colleague, who managed this, and kept the partition intact. Even managed manually to extract photos .john

John... I will go with what your lads say too if that is definitely the case. I can well believe it quite honestly. Thing is... over here in the great Brit Isles we get to know little until everything happens where Windows etc is concerned. We might be their great allies but where business matters we are merely little partners in a global game.

Re the return to Windows 8.1 from 10... I have now done this four times with absolutely no problems whatsoever. My partitions remain in place and are untouched. All relevant data was backed up first tme around though it was not necessary as it turned out and I always make recovery disks and test them when a purchase of a new machine is made so if the partition is corrupted, lost, overwritten etc it isn't a problem. I even put back partitions when they do get lost for clients machines through viruses and trojans etc as well as bad self OS installs!!!

It's always nice to know someone who can do this for you but I have done my own for years and have been in the business for over 30 years doing stuff like this. Glad you got it working again... :-)

[Augustus Caesar]

AC, this was using Wndows 10 which these pages should really be related.ColinR

OK... but these pages are most definitely related Windows 10 and only mention other OS's where necessary re rollbacks and possible relation to drivers etc. in regard to the subject this thread is all about.

[Augustus Caesar]

@John_Wilson1

The error messages are coming up for a few members but not all. I stopped them by reinstalling Win 10 second time around where the install went a lot smoother and had a few updates from MS in the install files downloaded when the upgrade starts to do its job.

I don't now get the handshake message but am at the same place as you with no communication and the icon when hovered over or attempted CV reads when I am told no DCC controller is detected.

[Teedoubleudee]

I read somewhere that there have been 3 updates to Win 10 since launch three weeks ago, so I guess they must be re-acting to customer feedback (and I include H/W and S/W manufacturers when I say customers). I'm sitting back till the dust settles.

[Fireman_Ian]

 It seems reading loco CV's is also a problem with the Elite. When I try to read from Railmaster the Elite clicks as usual and the loco lights flicker so the signal is getting through from Railmaster to the Elite but not the other way as all I get is an error reading message. 

[St1ngr4y]

... This worked for me. I hope it works for you ...

 

Excellent Phil, it worked for me as well.  The only issue I had was that my Elite icon was 'greyed out' and hovering over it showed that the 'DCC controller was inactive', even though I could control everything perfectly well.  I have followed your very detailed instructions and the Elite is no longer greyed out and hovering now shows 'DCC controller active'.

 

Hi Dave,

I, too, followed Phil's excellent instructions and I have the DCC controller showing "Active" for my Elite. Also I can now access loco CV's through RM which I couldn't before.

Ray

[Fireman_Ian]

Just done a quick test with JMRI and my Elite, it reads the CV's with no problems, does that tell us that the Elite driver is OK and the problem is Railmaster? 

[RB51]

 It seems reading loco CV's is also a problem with the Elite. 

Same here Ian - the train and accessory functions are fine but like you I cannot read/write any CV's and there may be other functions that I/you/we have yet to discover I guess. I have looked at the instructions from Phil on page 26 but can't follow them. I imagine as I upgraded from W8.1 to W10 the file destinations (or at least what they are called) are different. That didn't stop me trying though and having got in a right old pickle I have rolled back to a restore point prior to my mucking about with it. I've taken 2 Paracetamol and am now going to take the dog out. When I come back I shall just play trains [ with the greyed out Elite icon ] and be happy at that - for today anyway. R-

[Fireman_Ian]

I also tried Phils instructions but windows kept on overwriting the driver I copied from windows.old with the new driver as soon as I started the Elite so I was back to square one.

Just going to open a cold beer (or two) and play trains.

Ian.

[Yelrow]

Roger, its such a shame that both Elite, and RM appear  to have been affected, although, i am not surprised, i find it so much simpler reading cvs with Railmaster, than the elite. Have tried to follow those instructions, but find RM, so much easier You could of course revert, pro tem, as Augustus and others have done, which would allow you to be able to do  your normal running,  whilst a solution, is found  , but you may see that as a backward step. I must admit, although not affected, i am glad i dont have to follow phils  instructions. I always seem to miss out a step,  john

[RB51]

@ Yelrow

Hi John - I am not clever enough to know what is at fault - or how to fix it !! I am however content to play trains with the fuctionality I have and await the fix in due course. R-

[Yelrow]

Hi, roger,  There are  a few knowledgeable computer posters, on this forum all in same boat. . Nobody has a total handle on  the exact cause   As your layout, is pretty well set, and you are not buying new locos, you are more fortunate than others., in that you can still  play trains.  It is a little curious this fault. I can understand it for the elink, we have been down a similar road before, with windows 8, but the elite, is a different animal. I sincerely hope the remedy, is not an upgrade for that, as so many of struggled with the last one, me included, still not attempted. john

[Fishmanoz]

Your only struggle john is that you won't do it, the Elite upgrade. No one with 7 and below has had a problem with it.

[Yelrow]

Thats a bold statement, NO ONE, we only  know about those on the forum. Me, i will stick, not brave enough to twist. john