Thoughts on Electro Frog Points

[Smithy58]

having just recently started taking an interest in model railways again after a break of nearly 40 years, I am seeking opinions on the use of the electro frog points in conjunction with dcc cobalt IP digital point motors, I started off using peco setrack insular oh points with tortoise motors, somewhat fiddly and bulky especially when they are in close proximity And require a separate decoder.   Researching a bit I came across dcc IP digital motors which were smaller and easier to wire and use.   However on starting to use the layout to check if it was smooth running I encountered issues with shorting over the frogs of the points, it was so severe u could see the spark from the arcing.  Having done some more research and discussing the matter with dcc concepts, they advised I use insulated rail joiners on the frog rails and connect the frog rails to the terminal 3 on the motor, and remove the spring from the point.  This has worked out quite well on the three insulfrog turnouts I have converted.   I now know when I come to design my siding section of the layout I will use electro frog points with cobalt IP digital motors, in the main layout there is a mix of electro frog and insulfrog, the insulfrog only presents a problem when loco speeds are low I.e shunting etc where there is no current to keep the loco going over the point, any suggestion or thoughts on how to overcome this until I can convert all the layout to electro frog points?

[Graskie]

First of all, Smithy, I would refer you to an excellent website for help in the area of live frog points:

 http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk

Funnily enough, I am at the moment beginning to ensure that all my Peco Electrofrog points are improved (actually replaced with the newer already finely cut where advised ones) to avoid shorts, but between the point blades and adjacent rails which are otherwise of opposite polarities and easily bridged electrically by some loco or metal rolling stock wheels. I had already put insulated rail joiners at the end of each frog rail when I set my railway up 20 years ago. This is absolutely essential in order to avoid the shorts you have been getting. Next, you also need to consider wiring your points in the way I am, to avoid that sort of short as well. You'll find all the details in the above link. It's quite a task but should be well worth doing because DCC is so sensitive to shorts, often affecting loco decoders.

 

I actually use Peco point motors as well, and know nothing about yours.

 

As for improving insulfrog frogs, you can't really, and just have to accept that plastic does not conduct electricity. You can ensure that such pointwork is as flat and secure as possible but that's about it as far as they are concerned. You should try to convert everything to electrofrog as soon as possible. The only other idea I can come up with would be to fit stay alive capacitors to your DCC locos, so that when they fail to pick up current on the insulated frogs, power could still be applied from the capacitor.

 

Hope this helps. I'm sure others can add more advice. 

 

Admin edit: Corrected link

[Howbi]

Sorry, Graskie, your link to Brian Lambert does not work because there are unrequired spaces after each full-stop. This should work...

http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk

HB.

 

 

[Graskie]

Thanks, howbiman. I must have been feeling a bit spaced out!

[Smithy58]

Thanks Graskie andHowbiman. The motors I use are slow throw action hence the reason I removed the spring as it was throwing the point too quickly that it would short. I found it is also necessary to place the throw wire in the centre of the tie bar , I used to use peco motors the under board solenoid type but found it could be very severe when switching and it was also moving the track over time .  It is in my opinion a lot easier to line the cobalt digital IP motors up with the template once you have lined up the point. 

[Teedoubleudee]

Hi Smithy, I have just replaced all my Peco motors with Cobalt ip Digital for the very reason you mention in your last post. I was using AD-S8 decoders and the CDUs are very powerful and were damaging the hole in the point mechanism, apart from being very loud.

 

I only use electrofrog points as (nearly) all my locos are 0-4-0 or 0-6-0 and trying to run them slowly over insulfrog points was nigh on impossible. You must remove the point spring when using the Cobalt motors to allow the internal servo motor to give a smooth transition. Also when wiring the frog to input 3 of the Cobalt you may get a short first time you run over them - if you do change over the 2 DCC inputs 1 and 2. I always check mine with a meter when I install them to avoid this.

 

As far as smooth running over insulfrog points, all you can do is ensure the point is laid flat and level, the rails are cleaned regularly and so are the loco wheels plus make sure ALL the pickups are clean and making soild contact. The other alternative, if running DCC, is to fit "stay alive" decoders in the loco. These keep the motor turning for a few moments even when power is lost through poor contact.