Crossing

[Romeo]

Hi 

I am just creating my first layout in Oo gauge and it will be Dcc controlled. I am using electro frog points. Streamline code 100 track 

I would like to put in a diamond crossing I think they are called, purely to change from one line to another,  I am getting confused with the different codes which work together and the possibility of there being an elctro crossing 

Can some one point no pun intended in the right direction please 

stew

[Chrissaf]

Romeo, You didn't say but I assume you mean the Streamline Code 100 track made by Peco.

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The following Peco crossings are Code 100

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SL-93 Short Crossing Insulfrogs

SL-94 Long Crossing Inslufrogs

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The following Peco crossings are Code 75

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SL-193 Short Crossing Insulfrogs

SL-194 Long Crossing Insulfrogs

SL-E193 Short Crossing Electrofrogs

SL-E194 Long Crossing Electrofrogs

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The SL-E8364 Diamond Crossing is H0 scale not 00 scale. In fact, all Peco track that has a four digit code starting with 8 are H0 1:87 scale products aimed predominantly for the American and mainland Europe market.

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The difference between Code100 and Code 75 is that with Code100 the height of the rail is 100 one thousandths of an inch (1/10”). For Code75, the height of the rail is 75 one thousandths of an inch (0.75/10”). This does not sound a lot but trying to connect Code100 track directly to Code75 is not a good idea. Peco do a transition track piece to convert from one to another (SL-113). However I would recommend not mixing and matching track Code pieces. If you have already purchased Code100, stick with that throughout the layout.

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The E in the track part number denotes “Electrofrog”. Note there is no SL-E93 or SL-E94 Code100 Crossings made by Peco. This is, in my view, an oversight by Peco as the range needs them.

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Thus, as you are already committed to Streamline Code100 Electrofrog Points then I recommend you use the SL-94 Insulfrog crossover in combination with them.

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I know the combination of the E points and SL-94 crossing work as this is the combination of Peco track products I use myself on my own layout. Note the following however. The frog of the SL-94 Long Crossing provides a tiny gap between opposing polarity rails on the V of the frog and is prone to short circuits on some Hornby wheelsets. I had to modify my SL-94 Long Crossings to eliminate the problem. Basically I cut a gap in the rails around the Insulfrog, bonded the opposing rails electrically together and fed them via an auto frog juicer by TAM Valley. This mod completely eliminated any possibility of a short happening.

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Peco SetTrack parts (product codes that start with ST) are completely compatible with SL Code100 track parts. If your layout is based on standard Hornby 67mm track spacing then where you deploy a SL-94 Long Crossover you will find the inclusion of 79mm long ST-202 straights each side of the SL-94 will maintain this 67mm spacing exactly. Without the inclusion of ST-202 track pieces the spacing between tracks becomes 50mm.

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I will post a couple of photos of an installed SL-94 and detail the frog mod further. There will be a moderation delay before it appears later in this thread. Keep checking back.

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Note: to anyone considering posting a reply to this post. This is a long post. Please do not use the ‘Blue’ Quote button to reply, else this whole post will be replicated in your reply. Please scroll down to the bottom of the page and use the big reply text box and click the Green ‘Reply’ button

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PS - I'm all for a good pun.......so I will do my best to get you back on track and point you in the right direction.

 

[Chrissaf]

Romeo, As mentioned in earlier reply, here is a photo showing my deployment of SL-E92 Electrofrog points and SL-94 Crossovers. The inclusion of ST-202 track pieces ensure standard Hornby 67mm track spacing is maintained. The other image details the SL-94 modification to eliminate frog shorting issue with Hornby rolling stock.

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Right click the image and you should get a menu option to view full screen.

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/media/tinymce_upload/6689b7bda9ec65d41baa17fd635fda0a.jpg

 

 

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/media/tinymce_upload/75889fc5031a20deb7ebd4e3eaa02859.jpg

 

[Romeo]

What a fantastic and prompt reply, the detail is just what I needed, look forward to the pictures and hope I can ask more questions as I progress, many thanks 

[Chrissaf]

Romeo, The pictures have been posted. They just need to be moderated by Admin before they appear.

[Romeo]

Hi Chris

got the pictures will copy them and study later, again many thanks will keep you updated as to progress 

R

[peter_graves]

Hi

There are plenty of video's on Youtube that give help with this. I always assumed that the back to back wheel spacing was the problem but this seems to have been removed now.  I still  occasionally have problems when loco's traverse my Peco double slip at slow speed. 

 

[Chrissaf]

Correct me if I am wrong or have misunderstood your statement, but the double slip is a crossover point is it not. This discussion is about a fixed crossover. Similar issue potentially grant you, but not exactly the same.

[Romeo]

Hi Chris's 

would a mono frog juicer  be what I require 

thanks 

R

[Chrissaf]

Use the embedded Hyperlinks in the text below for more information.

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If by mono, you mean an output to a SINGLE frog. Then the answer is no. This is the case even if you use two mono juicers per crossing. The DFJ003 is a Dual Frog Juicer it has two frog outputs, but this particular juicer model (the Tam Valley DFJ003 that is, or the Tam Valley HFJ003 ) have link positions so that pairs of outputs can work together to provide a reversal of polarity synchronised across dual outputs. In other words, the juicer acts as a RLM (Reverse Loop Module).

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This is necessary because the two frogs of the SL-94 crossover always need to be of opposite polarity. Look again at the line drawing in my second posted image and take note of the desription in the cream text boxes that talks about 'Blue & Brown' polarity. You will see that when the left hand frog is Blue, the right hand frog is Brown (loco on A to C line) & when the left hand frog is Brown, the right hand frog is Blue (loco on B to D line). The use of brown & Blue colours is just my way of documenting the concept of pseudo DCC polarity of the individual rails. The DCC signal is a digital form of AC and does not in itself have a positive and negative polarity, thus my use of colours is just to represent a concept of polarity continuity through the rails. You can run locos alternatively across A to C and then B to D all day in quick succession, the DFJ003 never gets confused about what polarity to switch the frogs. it just works silently in the background to prevent shorts.

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With the DFJ003 configured as a RLM, when a loco trips either one of the crossing frogs, the other associated frog will simultaneously switch to the correct opposite polarity. This can not happen if you use mono juicers.

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You need one DFJ003 per crossing. Or you could use one Tam Valley Hex Juicer HFJ003 to control three crossovers. Other makes and brands of RLM are available, but as the Tam valley products are bare circuit boards (not cased) they are cheaper. Plus, I have already proven that they work brilliantly in this particular configuration. They are half the price of a Hornby RLM.

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Note: The Tam Valley DFJ003 has two current settings for the trigger current. Two amps and four amps (set by movable links). Make sure you use the 2 amp setting, even if using the 4 amp Hornby power supply. The 4 amp setting is designed for layouts that have 5 amp or higher boosters (typical in the USA. Tam Valley is a USA product). If you use the DFJ003 4 amp setting here in the UK with the Hornby power supply, then you will not get reliable switching. It is highly likely that the controller will short circuit trip before the DFJ003 switches.

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All my locos are sound equipped. The DFJ003 switches so FAST (300 microseconds), that my sound does not even flicker, no matter how closely I listen out for a glitch.

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PS - I use solenoid switches to control my points Electrofrog polarity. Obviously somewhat cheaper than an electronic frog juicer. But the frog juicer is so much more reliable for this task. I found my Peco PL-13 solenoid switches to be a bit picky about alignment when fitting and setting up. The design of them is not brilliant, and you have to glue them on the solenoid motor as there is no specific mounting for them. In hindsight, the more expensive PL-15 switches are better as they have a proper mounting and the contacts are adjustable for reliable easy set-up. However, I find the plastic of the PL-15 to be a little brittle and can crumble near the contact fixing bolts if over tightened. The plastic is thin at this point. I had to resort to two part expoxy glue as a running repair.

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Any further questions please feel free to ask.

[choralc]

You have two SL-94s so you must use two juicers one on each. Correct?

 

You also mention a RLM. Could you use a Hornby RLM on an SL-94 to do the 'juicing'? Or a Lenz RLM etc?

[Fishmanoz]

CS, Chris answered both of your questions in his last post?  A juicer per crossing unless you use the hex version for 3, and yes you can but double the price.

[Fishmanoz]

Chris, instead of running the risk of upsetting the purists by using DCC polarity, do you think there would be a chance of using the correct but possibly confusing concept of phase, the 2 rails being 180 degrees out of phase with each other?

[Romeo]

thanks again Chris I understand now. Just got to find a stockist and will order, is there an equivalent model you would recommend  in case I can't get one? 

[RB51]

 confusing concept of phase, the 2 rails being 180 degrees out of phase with each other

No idea what that means Fishy - so more confusing to me than polarity. Happy for someone to explain it - if it's felt to be helpful and I'll see if my brainbox can assimilate it. R-

[Romeo]

Thanks for the update Chris, I fully understand now , will track no pun intended down a good supplier for the Tam valley DFJ003 as recommended. I'm using sevo motors with two micro switches which give reall nice looking point operation with the added bonus of two miro switches which are operated by the servo. 

thanks for the offer to keep asking questions, as a new commer to this hobbie it's great to have help and not make to many blunders. 

R

[Chrissaf]

Fishy you are quite right, 'phase' would be the correct term to use, but as Roger indicated I felt most readers would have a better understanding of the term polarity. I did try to justify my use of the term by including the following text in my description.

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The use of Brown & Blue colours is just my way of documenting the concept of pseudo DCC polarity of the individual rails. The DCC signal is a digital form of AC and does not in itself have a positive and negative polarity, thus my use of colours is just to represent a concept of polarity continuity through the rails.

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The 'polarity' word (in bold) in the last sentence would be better if changed to "electrical" or something more descriptive.

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Romeo, the DFJ003 and HFJ003 Hyperlinks in my previous reply take you to 'Coastal DCC' the on-line supplier located in Ipswich I used to purchase my DFJ003s.

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CS (choralc), In fact I have four SL-94 Crossovers in my layout, only two shown in the posted photo. I could have chosen to use a single HFJ003 for 3 of them and a single DFJ003 for the 4th. But my mind borders on being OCD and I have this obsessive desire for symmetry even if it costs me more. Thus, I use four DFJ003s one per SL-94. As I described in my post, they are configured to function as a RLM, so in theory 'Yes' any RLM (even Lenz & Hornby or others) should be able to perform this function, but I can only categorically state it works using the DFJ003 as this is what I have built my solution on.

[Chrissaf]

Romeo, just for completeness of information. I used a Dremel (with flexi-shaft attached) to cut the gaps in the rails in the SL-94. Not everybody can do this easily. There is an existing thread on this forum that spends quite a few pages discussing the pros & cons of different rail cutting methods Dremel included. Worth researching the best technique that will suit you.

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The Hyperlink above will take you to Page 4 of the thread where you will find a close up photo of my SL-94 Dremel cut, plus photos by others (on other pages) where it has gone wrong for them (i.e not using a flexi-shaft).

[Romeo]

Thanks for the heads up on the dremel, I do have one with the flexible extension so fingers crossed. 

[Fishmanoz]

Roger, a brief explanation of phase:

 

Let's start with a sine wave, with the voltage oscillating up and down as you go along. Now put another sine wave under it with the peaks and troughs matching each other at the same time. These 2 waves are said to be in phase with each other. If we were to connect these two together, we'd get the same shaped sine wave resulting, except double the voltage  

 

Now let's take another two where the peaks on one match the troughs on the other. These are 180 degrees out of phase with each other. If we were to add these two together, we'd get nothing, or a short circuit. 

 

Now we could slide two sine waves along relative to each other and have the phase change from 0 degrees, through 180, all the way to 360, which is the same as 0.

 

With a DCC signal, it is a square wave rather than sine, and the 2 tracks are 180 degrees out of phase with each other.  Make any sense now?

[Romeo]

Hi Chris

i have acquired the crossing and made a good job of the cutting using the dremel flexi as suggested. 

I have one question, looking at your drawing it shows all four rails ( gray area ) require to be connected as one,  which area before the plastic frog or after the plastic frog would be the easiest and can I attach the juicier to the same place, I no this sounds basic stuff but I would rather I be right as apposed to heating up the rails to much by making a blunder 

stew

[Chrissaf]

I will post a photo. Expect a moderation delay....

Chris

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EDIT Photo has been posted.

[Romeo]

Thanks in advance Chris 

[Chrissaf]

Stew (Romeo)

Photo showing additional modification detail as requested.

Chris

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/media/tinymce_upload/1000d33c5a4559e0715078d4c9b4e56c.jpg

[Romeo]

Can't see the photo, do I need to do something to veiw 

stew