ColinB

I suppose I was comparing it to a modern diesel, but even against the class 47 and 37 it sounded rough. Nice sound though and I think it does make gear changes, it is a bit difficult to tell over the other noises it makes.

It is very nice you explaining it to me and I may be a bit flippant about voltages, but I know exactly what you mean, the information about the tests on solenoids filled in the gaps. I did power and machines for three years, it was part of my 4 year electronics degree. So yes I know exactly what RMS is, I know about ripple and maximum values, I also know all about power supplies, I used to design them. It is just I didn't want to say anything, especially after last time's telling off. I know very little about inductors and solenoids because basically they don't really follow ohms law and I have never really used them, same with triacs and scrs, other than for crowbar protection in power supplies. The only thing I do know about solenoids and inductors is to put a reverse diode across them to stop the back emf killing the driver. Normally I would go and ask a colleague at work, but I retired. So yes I know the difference between AC, DC, half wave rectified AC etc, I may be a bit rusty but when it comes to the crunch I know what they are and I still have a ton of books on it. As for the 18 volts I need to check my power supply, as I said I initially designed the box as a 4 track pwm controller, it has been modified extensively over the years plus I have bought in cdu, so I have not analysed what voltage it runs at. I think the cdu required 15 volts AC as an input so that is exactly what it got as for its output, I must at some time measured it and got 18 volts, but for all I know it could have been the multimeter reading some transient. If it was important, I would measure it properly.

I think is is 18 volts as it comes off a 15 volt transformer, but I cannot guarantee that, it should be 21 volts, according to your formula, originally all the points ran off the raw 15 volts. I built the controller about 30+ years ago, I will measure it next time. It uses 15 volts as the op amps that I used for the rest of the circuits run on +- 15 volts, we are talking 1980's technology. I did some surfing and checked in my electrical engineering books and it should work, but obviously it doesn't. In all the formulee I found it appears it revolves round (Number of turns * current) all squared, so if you double the number of turns you halve the current, so it should be same. As I said I am no expert, definitely not on AC and inductors, so I am obviously missing something, but there again so did Peco. Either way it doesn't matter, practically they don't work. I intend using a 16 channel accessory module that uses 5 volt switching, so I have got to use relays anyway, plus it gives me the option of digital and analogue control, so I will just use them where I am not loading them up with microswitches.

Thanks Chrissaf for the data, I am not an expert on solenoids, I need to go and do some reading. I think they assumed by doubling the number of turns on the coil they would get the the same effect. The thing is if you load it up with one of their slider switches that fit under the motor it would never work, even with a PL10 there are issues, that is why I use microswitches. The thing I cannot get my head around surely they did the same tests you did before marketting it.

I only tested them at 15 volts AC, as I test them before I install them, so I don't know if they will work better with the CDU system which has a slightly higher voltage. That does explain why one I installed about a year ago only pulls one way now. I know a lot of the modern stuff we used on cars got smaller and smaller, but then Ford spends millions on development, I doubt Peco has that sort of money. So it looks like it is back to the PL10s with a relay board, fortunately an 8 channel one from China is cheaper than buying the parts and making it myself. The low power PL10s appear to be double the impedance of the ordinary PL10.

I think I may have answered my own question. I bought some low power point motors and basically have found that they don't generate the same force as the original PL10. I only noticed it as I was fitting them to new points, that were a bit stiff. So probably the reason they don't work very well with the Hornby accessory module as Chrissaf was saying, is nothing to do with the accessory module, it is just that they are not that powerfull. That probably explains why they are withdrawing them., they basically don't work very well.

I just tried my class 121, it sounds like a really rough diesel engine. It sort of beats. The Zimo doesn't do the gear changes, not that I could hear. It does sound a bit like a really rough class 37, but not once it gets going. it is nothing like it. It is completely different to a class 47.

@RAF96 thanks for that. With the Zimo and probably the LokSound you probably get all those noises, I know with mine you do, but I suspect if it were implemented in a TTS you would just get the basic engine noise as there isn't the memory. I know with my TTS class 47 and LokSound class 47 (the loco had it in it when I bought it), the overall effect is totally different between the two.

I am going to get a lot of grief from the Hornby lovers, but why do Hornby rather than say the Elite is too old, just put a newer main board in and charge you for such, or sell you a new Elite at a much reduced rate. If I blow up a Zimo sound decoder or it fails out of warranty, I just send it back to YouChoos with £30.00 and I get a new one, LokSound do the same service. I imagine on the older Elites they probably used different components that you probably can no longer get. Although they look the same there may be subtle differences on the board layout that you cannot see. It could be that if the micro dies (that big thing with lots of pins) they may not have the equipment to solder a new one in, but again just exchange the board. I am sure most people would rather pay for a replacement board rather than buy a completely new unit and as a company you run the risk that they won't buy your product anymore. Having said that every time I contact Fleishmann about an issue I have with my twin centre controller, I get the aswer that it is too old and they don't support it anymore, so perhaps it is a model railway thing. Fortunately, last time it was just the encoders, which I got off EBay from China.

I bought mine years ago, secondhand, probably in the 80's, so it is still original. I bought a Hornby diesel where someone had done that and then spent a fortune buying a replacement bogie. I suppose it is up to you, it depends if you ever want to go tender first.

Sorry misread it, I did wonder why he was asking. I bought a Zimo as I got the Dapol one really cheap and it runs so well. I suppose it does sound a bit like like a class 37, definitely not like a class 47, well anyway my one does, but then I am no expert.

Well I have a 1980's one, R350 and on that one the front coupling is riveted to the front bogie. It looks like the front bogie has two lugs that stick up, the Triang type coupling goes over them and then they are peened over. In your case someone might have removed it and filed the lugs flat as they never intended to send the loco backwards. PS. I read your mail again, the slot you mention is where the hook sits but you are missing the rest of the old Triang coupling. The two lugs keep it on, the slot is just for the hook to move up and down. So it is not like the later coupling where it clips in.

It is an 8 pin DCC ready loco according to Hattons website, so any 8 pin DCC decoder. The Hornby R8249 will be ok, but really you can pick anyone you want. It is a DCC Hornby product so I expect their decoder to work. I don't know how much space there is inside, so that might be a deciding factor but the Hornby one is small and cheap. I have the equivalent Dapol to which I fitted sound, so there was enough room in that one, I suspect the Hornby is the same.

I bought some of that second link you sent, that is how come I know they are too wide. I suppose you could file them down. The thing is why make them so wide, surely just opening any tank loco you can see the optinum size. I think you might even be pushed where the socket is in the tender as it hits the back of the tender. The Hornby one is quite compact, it just needs making out of a better material.

@RAF96 the trouble with those is they are usually too wide. There is a guy in Medway that advertises on EBay that does one, but again it is too wide. Generally they also don't seem to have fixing holes. There was a guy at work that used to do PCBs I keep meaning to ask him about making one, or alternatively when I get finished with my railways immediate issues sitting down and looking for a cheap package to do it. I did the course about thirty years ago but I think they are a lot easier now. I want one with plated through holes so you can solder the wires either side. That was why I wanted to know if there was a patent on the design.

Yes, Chrissaf you are right, so it must be short somewhere else, unless of course pin 2's driver has gone short circuit, but then that would show up when he changes decoders. It could be a short between pins 2 and 6, that would do it, but then the front lights would be on all the time. As I said, go down the gaps between tracks with a fine tipped screwdiver. The other thing has got to be the wiring to the leds on the loco, this is the only other thing that is unique to each loco. The biggest issue when I did this was preventing the wires on the leds (I used tower leds) getting ripped off when I put the body on. I never asked what sort of leds are you using, individual ones or two leds in one package (bi colour led).

@RAF96 is there anything around other than the Hornby socket. The only thing is to replace those individual pin sockets with a low profile 8 pin socket, trouble in some locos it makes the dcc header too high. The trouble with the Hornby socket, it is a bit like Veroboard, so easy to get small slivers of solder across ajacent pins, they are also hard to solder to. If you compare soldering to their 8 pin DCC socket to their 4 pin tender socket, they are streets apart, so we know they are capable of making decent boards. Anyway, back to the original subject, normally after soldering to the 8 pin socket I go down the gap between tracks with a fine screwdriver blade, as I used to with Veroboard. If this is the fault the guy is very lucky, it could have so easily been between pins 1 and 8, or 4 and 5 which as we all know is bye,bye decoder.

A cv is not going to fix it, you have a pemanent supply to the rear lights somewhere. If you used a socket you probably have a hairline piece of solder between pins 2 and 7, go down the gap with a scalpel or a small screwdriver. A guy on EBay makes a really nice 8 pin socket which makes the job really easy, why do people not use it when they are retrofitting it to an old model. Another guy makes an equally nice pcb for the pull up resistors. They are not even expensive. It came out too late for my conversion, but if it had I would have used it. There was loads of posts on this forum about HST lights.

I think the issue with this, is there are multiple types of HST, not helped by Hornby. The newer Railroad HST from what I gather from posts (my one is old and I had to add DCC sockets) has the lights on permanently, so I think that explains many of the issues. You can do what ever you want to the decoder, but it is not going to change that. What you need to do is rewire the DCC socket so they are controlled by the decoder. I think it would help a lot if people explained what level of HST they have.

A lot of the time it is what will fit. I tend to use iphone speakers, not only are they very thin and fit into Hornby tenders and Bachmann Diesels well, they are really easy to insulate and they sound great. Where iphone speakers won't fit I use sugar cube ones, as big as will fit, insulation is more of an issue with these as they have metal spring clips. The sound comparison from Richard Croft is worth listening to, it is really interesting. I think it is him that supplies the iphone speakers I use.

I think all Hornby main locos are second radius minimum. If you are worried why not buy an old second hand tender driven one which will do the smaller radius bends.

I have got 4 of these, I bought one secondhand and basically rebuilt it as it had so much wrong with it. The DC runaway, is probably more to do with the Schools loco losing the DCC signal, I have never noticed it much with a Hornby or Hattons decoder, but that is more due to the fact that I only have fitted these to locos that have decent pickups. With the LaisDCC decoder I have even had them going backwards when they lose the DCC signal. The issue with the Schools loco is that it can "rock" on its traction tyres if you have the slightest uneven track or points, meaning that it relies on the front bogie or the tender to get power so check that these pickups are working properly. I don't know if you have the older Schools loco with the really bad pickups on the front bogie, or the newer one where they improved the pickups. Unfortunately, Hornby don't sell either as spares, so having seen the later type I modified mine using bodged parts.If you want more information see Sam's Trains on YouTube he explains the issue with front pickups exactly. Hattons Decoders work just well as Hornby's, I think there was an issue with the earlier Select software. I shouldn't be saying this on this site, but I have found that the Zimo £20.00 decoders handle a bad dcc signal much better than the rest. TTS decoders have a big issue with "DCC runaway" but they seem incredibly sensitive to anything, I have never noticed it on Hornby decoders but there again, I tend to always use Zimos as they are tons more reliable (sorry Hornby) and the people at a certain firm that sells them are so helpful.

Having read your post again, I am wondering if it is something wrong with the pickups on the tender.

What it probably is, is the valve gear. Check that none of it is catching.when the loco goes round corners. I have had it with my Schools Class. What it does, is the crank pin catches on one of the transversing rods (or whatever you call them) and the valve gear locks, locking the wheels making the motor stall, drawing maximum current. Even so, I think a Hornby decoder is only rated at about 0.8 of an amp (it is definitely less than an amp), so if your motor was drawing 1 amp, I would expect the decoder to blow, but perhaps the Select trips before there is any damage. I am sure the stall current on these motors is a lot less than an amp. Unless you have removed the wheels off their axles, I doubt the quartering is wrong especially not on a new loco, Hornby I assume have a special jig in production for setting it properly. Alternatively it could be something else shorting out, even though, from all the bad posts on this forum about the Select, I doubt it is that, because as you say, all your other locos work fine. I don't know how easy this is, but try running it without the front bogie and see it that improves it.

I have been replacing the wheels on all my 1980's vintage carriages from Hornby, I have not noticed an issue getting the wheels. I even fitted modern wheels to my old Royal Mail coach. Hornby make them in different sizes. It is a good idea the change the wheels to the more modern type as they run better. If you want the old ones I am sure someone must have some secondhand, I threw my old ones away as they didn't work well with my Peco points.