Did the 2251 class ever wear BR lined black?

[GWR LNER fan 4472]

I've found a few pictures of class member 2218 in what looks to be a late BR lined black, however with the amount of dirt it could be lined green.

http://www.archive-images.co.uk/gallery/Archive-Colour-Images-of-the-Railways-of-Breconshi/image/52/Brecon_Railway_Station_1962

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p384975830

Is anyone able to confirm if any members of the class, and if possible 2218, wore lined black in the late 1950s/early 60s? A quick image search returns lined green and unlined black, however Mainline produced a lined black model, but Bachmann didn't. Can anyone help please?

EDIT: On further research, this website lists 2213 and 2238 as examples of the class to wear lined black, so it did happen.

http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveriesloco1948.html

Does anyone know if 2218 was in lined black or heavily-weathered lined green?

[VESPA]

The first link you give is green as the orange lining is just visible. The trouble with 50's photos of trains is that they are mainly black and white due to the cost of colour those days. Secondly it is a minor class of loco so photos will be thin on the ground. I will have a look through my books of GWR locos and see if I can come up with something.

[GWR LNER fan 4472]

Thanks so much VESPA, I didn't think to look for orange instead of red lining! I did the same and there are very few colour photos I could find, those that did it looked black. On the off chance you have 'Steam in South Wales' by Derek Huntriss and photography by Alan Jarvis, there are two pictures of 2218, one of which is from 3rd of July 1962, whereas the one in the first link is dated 7th of July 1962, leading me to presume the loco is in late BR lined green for this whole period.

My my, BR really didn't clean their locos that well did they?

[threelink]

I've just cobbled together a Collett goods (aka 22xx class) from £2.62 worth of rubbish. It's in unlined green but the only tender I have is from a Fowler 3F in lined black (a further ruinous £2.00) which I intend to doctor up as an ex ROD tender (some Collett goods ran with such). If the 22xx did run in lined black, as I think some did, I shall have a difficult choice to make over matching loco and tender liveries. Ideally Vespa will come up with 22xx locos in unlined black, which will make the whole job a lot easier. The only question then will be did the unlined black Collett goods have the loco number painted on the front buffer beam?

[GWR LNER fan 4472]

@threelink - There's a photo from 1949 in my second link of 2267 with ex-ROD tender and number on buffer beam, if that's any help.

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p384975830

[Going Spare]

gwr.org.uk quotes 2213 & 2238 as examples carrying lined black in the 1948-1956 period and at least 25 members of the class (but 2218 is not mentioned) wearing lined green from when the policy was changed in 1957. Locos may have carried lined black beyond 1956 until due for repaint but it appears it was not an official arrangement from 1957 onwards.

[81F]

Never mind finding out which loco ran in which livery, you also have the complication of identifying the correct tender for the livery/period. I believe there were four tenders that the class pulled, all being made by the various manufacturers who have had the tooling.

these were the Collett 3500g, Churchward 3500g, ROD Robinson tender and finally a smaller Chgurchward type similar to that fitted to the City of Truro.

Another variant would be to blank out the cab window to produce a wartime build example

[threelink]

Some really helpful info. Thanks to all. With reference 81F's comments about tenders it is my understanding that whenever a loco received works attention requiring it to be separated from its tender it would be paired with whatever compatible/suitable tender was available when the work was completed. I understand that the GWR had a larger stock of locos than tenders on the basis that at any given time a proportion of the locos would be in the works, not requiring a tender, so it made economic sense not to have surplus tenders standing about unused.

[GWR LNER fan 4472]

Well folks, I've just bought a 2251 in early BR unlined black, with Churchward tender. Not to decorate as 2218, but I'll certainly weather it. May renumber it at a later date, however I'm happy for the time being. I like the idea of getting a lined green one at some point though. Also got two Collett bow-ended coaches (as discussed here: https://uk.hornby.com/community/forum/collett-vs-stanier-57-coaches-321510?ccm_paging_p=1#end-of-replies) and a GUV in maroon. All bargains from Hattons :-)

[threelink]

@GWR & LNER fan

Sounds good. Can I ask if the the unlined black 22xx has the number on the front buffer beam and are the cabside plates on a red ground or a black ground? I have a fondness for these locos and the models are useful because of the mixed trafffic classification and wide route availability of the prototype. I now have three of them, all mongrels made from bits and pieces but capturing the stance and presence of the real thing. One is still a work in progress - an old whitemetal kit on a Triang/Hornby chassis - but promises to be the best of the three.

[81F]

The unlined black Bachmann one I have has a Black cabside number plate and a BR number plate on the smokebox door and no number on the buffer beam (the latter was a GWR feature) although some locos may have retained them for a little while after nationalization I would suspect that they might still have been in GWR green or possibly wartime black (not seen any photographic evidence of a 2251 in this state though).

I think the use of red backgrounds were pretty random on BR and I do wonder if it depended upon where the loco was overhauled oe which shed the loco was based. Interestingly I read somewhere that the last ex=GWR Saint (Saint David) had red name and numberplates one side and black the other at some point - can anyone confirm?

[81F]

Lots of photos of 2251's here:

Rail-Online | 2251 0-6-0

but they will help you match up the right number with type of tender.

[VESPA]

I have trawled several books to see if I could find just one photo of 2218. The class was elusive in the books. I have one that has a section dedicated to Welsh areas and there were only 2 of the class photographed. I suppose, as I have said, that there was not that much interest in the small tender locos and that is why there are few photos. In early days of colour photography for the masses Dufaycolour and Agfa were the cheapest but Kodachrome gave better reproduction. The trouble was that it was only 8 ASA which is a very slow film (light absorbtion). The others were similar but Kodakchrome had to be sent to Kodak for processing. Without getting to far into reasons, one was a sustantive film and the other nonsubstantive meaning one had the colours built in. Another problem with B&W was that earlier films were Orthochromatic whist newer films were Panchromatic. Again these would render some light colours darker or would not differentiate between certain colours. Photographers would use coloured filters to change this. eg red and green are hardly distinguishable on Pnchromatic film unles you use a red or green filter. A green filter would make the red look darker and a red would make the green darker. Many photographers used a yello or yellow green filter to get the lining correct on green passenger steam locos. OK photo lesson over but that is what will complicate any B&W photo referred to by changing the apparent lining or colour from green and black. I will keep looking as I have several hundred books, mostly LMS (BR) or LNER (BR) with quite a few with all regions. That reminds me I must have a clear out of books.

[81F]

Would I be right in thinking that if I wanted to line a plain black loco I would only need to do red on the boiler bands and not those around the fire box plus red/.grey around the lower panel of the cab and the tender sides. In other words not the splashers or rear of tender?

Also would the small early logo be more likely?