More "Old" Coaches.

[81F]

I think I understand Hornby's motives for choosing 1950's/60's prototypes since this is what they think their target market remember from childhood (20 years before my time - I wasn't born 'til the mid 60's). However, I think only making models of stock

introduced at that time is a bit of a mistake as earlier stock would have continued in use much later particularly on branch lines.

So why can't we have more pre war designed coaches - I've seen videos of ancient looking LBSC stock in BR days and I

think there is even a glimpse of a toplight pulled by a Churchward Mogul in an express tran at some point in the Titfield Thunderbolt.

[mortehoe]

81F, I'm with you on this one. I know to a rivet counter, the idea of the earlier Hornby Clestories, with a change of roof and a repaint, wouldn't do, but it would work for me. Lets throw up that old Chestnut the Isle of Wight. The coaching stock was old

girls right up to the end.
Out of place on my planned layout, but an Island O2 or mainland come to that, with Island stock, would be a must.

[LCDR]

Things ARE moving on of course, the short LNER Suburbans look very good in the previews, and if Hornby follow the trend that was set with the Corridors (LNER Gresleys, LMS Staniers, SR Maunsells and GW Hawksworths) there is hope that some non-corridor

stock that would satisfy the masses might eventually turn up. In truth there is already a model of the GW B set and Autocoach so the GW has a head start, although these may require an upgrade. The LMS Non-corridors could include a Stanier pull & push driving

trailer too. If Hornby then bit the bullet and made an O2 with some LB&SCR 54 footers in SR (IOW) livery that would be a good start.

[81F]

My wife would certainly like some LBSC coaches to go with her terriers

[LCDR]

And they would go with an O2 if the Isle of Wight was the subject of the layout. Similarly the 60 foot Birdcage sets of the SECR/SR/BR would be very popular and most distinctive!

[mortehoe]

Now a Birdcage set, yes please. A quick blow over with blue, and I have a Longmoor Military Railway set. Just need to lay my hands on a WD 2-10-0 ( Gordon ) to pull them.

[the ferret]

LC&DR said:

And they would go with an O2 if the Isle of Wight was the subject of the layout. Similarly the 60 foot Birdcage sets of the SECR/SR/BR would be very popular and most distinctive!

Hi LC&DR, you and I are birds

of a feather. Yes, IoW arc roof stock (ex LBSC), Birdcage "Three" sets (60 feet stock), ex-LSWR "gate" stock as used with O2 haulage on the Oreston and Turnchapel branch ex Plymouth "Friary" Station, The Maunsell rebuilds of the Panter 4-LAV sets that became

the 58ft 3-LAV "cross-country" Trio Sets, the GWR four coach and five coach suburban sets as used on the 2 hour long stopping journeys from Paddington to Reading where there were no less than seventeen stations at which to call.

The Maunsell rebuilds

were used from Reading (GWR) to Portsmouth or Southampton behind a T9 or a D15 4-4-0, the birdcages behind a T9 or a Wainwright 'D' 4-4-0 from Reading (Southern) to Guildford (ten stops) and on to Redhill (a further eight stops).

I can still reel off

all the station names on all of these journeys. It was so demanding of patience by an eight year old boy!! - Truly a set of character building experiences that would drive today's "are we nearly there yet?" children straight into a mental hospital - the sort

of children, that is, who mutineer on every family holiday from the back seat of the family car!!!

Being shut in a five facing five railway compartment with no corridor and no toilet facilities for over two hours at a stretch is, quite honestly, no

joke at all. But we did it - because we had to. And that is what these coaches were all about.

On the plus side and certainly with respect to the LSWR rebuilds and the Birdcages, these coaches were wood-framed, heavily upholstered and therefore gave

a very quiet and smooth ride. This was quite unlike the 2-NOL and 3-SUB emu sets that followed, giving a very "short" and uncomfortable ride.

However the 2-BIL emu corridor stock that came after 1937 had much more resilience in the suspension and rocked

gently from side to side that with the quadruple wheel beats on the 60 feet interval rail-joints gently rocked you to sleep.

[LCDR]

Remember that they used 4Sub units in the summer months to run special trains from the South London suburbs to Brighton and other South Coast resorts, often non-stop from New Cross Gate. Although not quite two hours I guess the lack of facilities were

a sore trial for families with young children who were full of 'pop'!

[the ferret]

Hi LCDR, were these 4-SUB units formed from old wooden 1925 3-SUB stock with full panelling?
There was a surplus of trailer cars as the underframes of the motorcar and driving trailers were being withdrawn to be rebuilt with new bodies as 2-EPB and

2-HAP stock by the late 1950s.

Thus having the extra trailers the survivors were reformed as 4-SUB. All this stock was only eight feet in width while the later stocks were around nine feet in width with a pronounced curve in section from cantrail to

skirt.

Amongst this later post-war stock were the Bulleid flat-fronted 4-SUB stocks like the post-war 2-HAL, 2-EPB and 2HAP were beginning to appear but these did not "do it for me"(!) because being all steel the wonderful almost tram like quality of

the wooden pre-war trains was completely lost to be replaced by rather horrid and dull uniformity.

The 2-NOL stock was of the same general design as the 1925 3-SUBS, with rather square and yet domed cab ends and I want some!!!!

[mortehoe]

Hi Ferret, horses for courses, I preferred the ride of a 4-Sub, over the 4-EPB, it was some what quieter.

[LCDR]

the ferret said:

Hi LCDR, were these 4-SUB units formed from old wooden 1925 3-SUB stock with full panelling?
There was a surplus of trailer cars as the underframes of the motorcar and driving trailers were being withdrawn to be rebuilt

with new bodies as 2-EPB and 2-HAP stock by the late 1950s.

Thus having the extra trailers the survivors were reformed as 4-SUB. All this stock was only eight feet in width while the later stocks were around nine feet in width with a pronounced curve

in section from cantrail to skirt.

Amongst this later post-war stock were the Bulleid flat-fronted 4-SUB stocks like the post-war 2-HAL, 2-EPB and 2HAP were beginning to appear but these did not "do it for me"(!) because being all steel the wonderful

almost tram like quality of the wooden pre-war trains was completely lost to be replaced by rather horrid and dull uniformity.

The 2-NOL stock was of the same general design as the 1925 3-SUBS, with rather square and yet domed cab ends and I want some!!!!

The

story of the 3Sub and 4Sub is complex and very interesting. It is a very good example of recyling!

The original 3 car electric motor sets were constructed for the LSWR electrification by converting former steam non-corridor stock. These set the pattern

for the future. Coaches were originally 51 feet long.

When the electrification of the South Eastern section was undertaken by the Southern Railway in 1926 a series of new 3Sub units were ordered from Metropolitan C&W, and these coaches were the first

to be mounted on the soon to be standard 62 foot underframes. These new vehicles had Maunsell style bodies with smooth steel panelled sides. Extension of the former LSWR electrification also got a few similar new 3Subs but with shorter 58 foot underframes

and a much more pointed nose to match the earlier LSWR sets. Until 1941 these were the only brand new suburban carriages the Southern obtained!

The LSWR had added unpowered trailer sets to their fleet, so that two 3Subs could be padded out to 8 cars.

These trailers were second hand normal suburban steam stock converted with air brakes and through power and control cables.

At that time the LBSCR lines had been electrified on the 6600 volt overhead AC system.

As soon as the South Eastern section

was being electrified all the old South Eastern 4 and 6 wheel steam suburban stock was rendered surplus. The Southern Railway therefore built new 62 foot underframes and took the old SE steam stock bodies off their original wheels and mounted them on top.

From then onwards the 62 foot underframe became standard.

Trailer sets comprising two carriages still on original underframes were created so that 8 car trains were possible. These followed the original LSWR practice and were a motley collection of

former SECR, LSWR and LSWR non-corridor stock. Some carriages were also constructed for these trailer sets using second hand bodies on new 62 foot underframes.

Later build of 3Sub used former LSWR and LBSCR bogie carriage bodies with extra compartments

added to fill up the 62 foot undeframe. A good example of ‘cut-n-shut’! The 2Nol units were also made in this way.

When the LBSCR overhead was replaced by third rail the original carriages were converted to third rail too. Some of the longer carriages

retained their original LBSCR underframes, but most got new 62 foot undeframes.

The former LSWR 51 foot stock was eventually extended on 62 foot undeerframes in the 1930s. After that the only short sets were those few built on 58 foot underframes by

MCW for the SW service extensions.

In 1941 a new 4Sub unit was introduced which was similar to the 1926 MCW stock but the bodies were given a more rounded profile so that six person could sit side by side in the compartment rather than five. At the

same time the Southern Railway decided that all its suburban units were to be made up to 4 cars. To do this a batch of trailer cars to the same profile as the 1941 train were built on 62 foot underframes, and these were inserted into 3Subs. These new trailers

were called ‘augmentation’ trailers, and because they were wider than the set they were inserted into,and of smooth panelled appearance, gave a very odd look. During the war many trains were damaged and by reforming existing sets it was possible to create

more 4Subs by using undamaged carriages from bombed units. This process continued into the early 1950s. At the same time the old trailer sets not on 62 foot underframes were scrapped.

In 1946 some of the older 3Subs were withdrawn and their underframes

were reconditioned and given new all steel welded bodies of Bulleid design. These did away with the sleek dome over the cab end and presented a brutal flat fronted appearance. Some new underframes were built but most were reconditioned from old 3Subs. As these

new trains appeared between 1946 and 1950 the older wooden ones were scrapped, and their underframes were re-used.

In 1951 a brand new braking and control system was introduced, and the 4Sub construction programme was replaced by a 4EPB programme. The

4EPB were really 4Subs with modern equipment, but of course they were incompatible with the earlier stock. However the scrapped 3Subs continued to give up their underframes to the new EPB units. The 4EPB on pre-war underframes continued to be made until the

BR standard stock appeared in the late 1950s, by which time all the old wooden augmented 3Subs had gone.

[flyingfox4475]

A long time ago Hornby did produce very poor LNER clestories in teak. they did not have any seating inside. It would be good if they did try to cater for those of us that model pre BR days. BR had such a poor rep that when I was a lad I decided to model

LNER pre 1948. I have always wanted earlier coaches than those offered by Hornby. The upgraded gresleys are super and have been a great improvement on my old stock. I wait for the new LNER suburbans. I would love to have them produce some early stock from

say GCR GER and NER. I did find a web site producing some NER designs but when I costed it it was to much. I now content myself that if I have faith Hornby will produce them some time in the future. The LNER suburbans are proof prayers work.

[81F]

I think I chose to model the GWR for similar reasons - Locos were blue boxes with yellow ends coaches were either Mark 1s or 2s in blue and grey - Indeed my only bit of excitement was an incredibly dirty 47 in what looked as if it might be two-tone green.

No wonder I was drawn to the GWR wid Didcot just down the line!