inconsistent speed profile loco Hornby

[Britannia Builder]

Hi Joel

 

Thanks for posting the image (I opened the image in a separate tab to make it big enough to read). There is something strange about the 1st and 3rd locos because the number of entries in the speed curve doesn't match the maximum speed of the locos. The 2nd loco looks OK - it has entries for 5,10,20,30...80 mph but the others only have entries for 5,10,20...50 mph (and these curves are identical, so perhaps they came from the same source?). I'm not sure how RM would behave if the speed curve doesn't have enough entries. I don't know why the factor column isn't being updated - it works fine for me. Incidentally the column names in my resource.mdb have capital letters, eg Factor rather than factor, so I'm not sure where your column names come from?

 

It might be best to try again with a new loco from the Hornby database that has a suitable maximum speed and speed curve?

 

Regards, John

 

 

 

[jodel]

Hello John 

Thank you for your reply. i am very happy you saw some strange datas in this database because until now i felt a little alone with my problem. HMRS did not believe that it could be a "malfunction" on RM. however i sent this query result this week end ( after your suggestions) and i still wait an answer.

So in fact, i made a copy of ressource.mdb to avoid  to destroy it , and i opened it with openOffice base. perhaps it is the reason why the names of the column have capital letters.

in this base i created a row with my first loco , that i bought at the same time i bought RM. it is a Hornby loco ref HJ2211s but unfortunately it is  not known in the RM loco database... so i had to create it "manually" as describe in the chapter ' locomotive configuration' of RM guide : i write a locomotive DCC ID, Name ( i wrote the ref : HJ2211S) , and i choice cruise speed and shunt speed.

The second loco is a loco i found in the loco database to have a point of comparison in ressource.mdb, but i have not it really.

the third one is a digitalized loco with a lokpilot decoder and i create it in RM in the same way of the first one.

after this declaration in RM i tried to set a speed factor for this 2 loco but without success : they were always too fast in Scale speeds.after i test in step speeds and i saw better results, like i said in my previous topic...

in fact i ask HRMS to know if it could be a bug under some conditions, or if perhaps i was not able to declare correctly the unknow loco in RM and mainly  for the scale factor.

as a user of RM,  i consider that the scale factor does not works in any way for Scale speed. 

So if the scale factor will never work with  Scale speed, i consider that the scale factor is only a marketing feature without a real fonctionnality !... at the limit, RM does not meet the requirements if i consider that RM user guide is like a user specification of RM....

in this condition i don't see any advantage to buy new Hornby loco well known in the RM loco database, because i cannot mixed the 2 type of speeds in RM : scale and steps... in this condition and if confirmed,  i consider that RM is not an open train controller system...

afer that, i can use RM only in steps speeds for all my other locos but i hope  always,.... and perhpas i must leave after RM.....

here are my thought about scale speeds on RM...

many thanks Jofn for you replies.

Joel

PS : i ma sorry i entry 3  replys instead one in this tpic..

 

 

 

[Britannia Builder]

Hi Joel

 

Sorry to hear that your Hornby loco is not in the database. I've just tried adding a new loco that's not in the database and I get similar results to you - just 6 entries in the speed curve even though I gave a cruising speed of 80mph, and the Factor column is blank (I didn't go into the timer window, which to be fair the manual says that you should do for locos not in the database).

 

So I can't really help any further - maybe there is something wrong here in Railmaster, but I can't test it. I don't know how it behaves if the speed curve doesn't have enough entries to cover the speed range. And if you use a non-Hornby decoder and change its CVs to change the speed characteristics in the decoder, you can't really expect the standard Hornby speed curves to work correctly. I have a Hornby Class 101 which was fitted by the retailer with a Bachmann/ESU decoder and after setting up the decoder I had to change the Factor in resource.mdb right down to 0.2 to get it to run at sensible speeds.

 

Regards, John

[Britannia Builder]

Hi Joel

 

Just a quick update - I tried setting up a loco not in the database again, with shunt speed 10 and cruise 80, and then went into the timer window and set max speed 90 and time an arbitrary 10 seconds. It did then set a Factor of 1.925 along with a speed curve of 1.894,1.139,0.959,0.809,0.759,1.239,

 

These figures looks reasonably sensible to me (assuming that it does something sensible when the speed is greater than the last entry in the speed curve). Perhaps worth setting up the loco again, doing the max speed timing and seeing if you get a Factor other than 1?

 

Regards, John

[96RAF]

One of the RM options is to load the UK and / or continental models database. Did you tick the option for Joueff which ismwhat I presume HJ stands for.

Have a look in the locos picture folder as well.

Rob

[jodel]

Hi John , thank you for your involvement, 

Yes i did that like you : i set for 125Kph arbitrary either 3s, 9,5 s ( which should be the correct value for 125kpH), or  30s. and i had always the same value for the speed factor = 1...( i back up 3 times after each test,  the Ressource database with different name to compare..) 

But i will try again tomorrow if erhaps  i made a mistake in the keybord input ...  it is  better to be sure to have fully tested.

of course, this behavior for my RM is completely incredible ....

 

Hi RAF96, 

For the Jouef loco i verified in Railmaster.ini  : i have "Load Jouef locos=1". and i can see some Jouef locos in the loco database. but i know by HMRS, that the database for Jouef loco is updated since  for example 2009?? ( i dont remember exactly the year.).

Is it what you mean ?

Thanks for your replies.

Joel

[jodel]

Hi John

like i said , i test again my ressource database this morning. and curiously the factor values has changed !!!??? it is really incredible, and i will say .... that i had a bad handling i my previuos test conditions with RM ( scale, factor...) and openoffice....

here are the results : 

1 : HJ2211S , time for scale factor : 3 ( at the limits) : the factor is 4 !!!

/media/tinymce_upload/c8000e516fb24f9afb43a2e7b02e2b7e.jpg

2 : time for scale Factor : 30 . the result is 2 !...

/media/tinymce_upload/717eeacc20eee740b01e4dfcb8bc3267.jpg

and i also test the real speed for HJ2211S and the results are still disastrous...

How the factor is acting : does it multiply or divide the speed ?

hovewer in my 2 test cases  i think the factor is too high ... i expected to see a factor less than 1, to slow down my speeds....

and if the factor setting is now  really acting in tthe database, but with a too high factor, following your advice, i have to do a fine tuning with the PRO version as describe in the RM guide... 

But this confirms what i said : Speed factor for Non Hornby international locos, as describe in the RM guide is a pure marketing feature.at the limit of a deception on the RM software... and  i can't believe this... and about this kind of issue, i don't understand why Hornby didn't publish a limit on the use the scale factor...

Many thanks again

Joel

[96RAF]

 

For the Jouef loco i verified in Railmaster.ini  : i have "Load Jouef locos=1". and i can see some Jouef locos in the loco database. but i know by HMRS, that the database for Jouef loco is updated since  for example 2009?? ( i dont remember exactly the year.).

Is it what you mean ?

Yes it is what I meant - I would expect if you select a loco range that RM would load the current database for that range including everything up to the date of the latest revision state.

Rob

[Britannia Builder]

Hi Joel

 

It's all rather strange - I don't know why your Factor is an exact integer. A smaller value of Factor reduces the speed, in my experience.

 

If you can't get the right values into resource.mdb, perhaps you could adjust the CVs in your decoder to get the right speeds? Or you could try using a different loco that is in the database, and change the picture to match your HJ2211S (incidentally HJ2211S.jpg is in the locos folder on my system).

 

Regards, John

[jodel]

Hi John,

Thank you for your reply. 

fortunately, when i set RM with step speeds, and i set the CV2, 5, 6 with  a good value according with the expected speeds i have more or less good results. what i do not understand is   :

• Why there is so much difference between the 2 modes ( steps vs scale) ?
• and why HRMS dont want to hear my request,  while it seems to me, that the scale factor makes a simple proportional ratio on the speeds set in the loco?  for me with a so simple algorithm, there must be a very evident cause which makes the factor error stored in the database.

this is the reason why i think that the cause of this bug is when i input Vmax or time in scale factor : perhaps there no enough constraints in RM GUI, to control the range or the consistency of the input values...

Yes i can use  my loco with a similar loco configured by Hornby in the database , but in that case i cannot mix the different  kinds of loco ( Hornby or non hornby) : So i will stay for the moment in steps mode, and  later perhaps i have to change to Train Controller , if no other answer from HRMS .  it depends also to know if Hornby wants always ( or Not) to evolve RM with the loco retro signalisation. at the moment we have no visibility from Hornby for this major evoultion.

thanks again for your help. Regards

Joel

[jodel]

Hello John and all contributors,

Last week HRMS has connected on my PC for this issue : the diagnostic was to modify the Windows regional parameters, about dot separator (instead of comma : i have of course a french windows version). and the speed algorithm works  . i think the algorithm for speed factor didn't work with a comma in time setting.

however i had to set a time,  by successive settings, of 5.8 sec to have a good Max speed. The first time measure give me 13,5 sec for adjust the speed factor and the Max speed was still too high but 2 time instead 5time as  before.

/media/tinymce_upload/a8379581a03bf50109a134a29b314827.jpg

the profile is not perfect but i can improve it perhaps in setting value for CV6, CV2. 

And i want to know what i have to buy ( except the PRO version) to do a fine tuned speed profile as describe in the RM guide on page 43 : what sensor for detect the loco and what device to link it by USB to RM ? 

thanks for your replies

joel

[Fishmanoz]

jodel, you are talking about loco detection or LD which isn't available, has been in th wings for years and no indication of when it will be.

[jodel]

Hello Fishmanoz,

Ok that's what i suspected. but i don't understand why Hornby writes and describes  this process in their RM guide ( standard , not PRO).

/media/tinymce_upload/8083360939b8098d353c222b0addacc5.png 

if this feature is not implemented in the software for the moment, they should not write it !!!...

Contractualy this could be be interperted as a fraudulent manipultation... in other words, if the scale factor algorithm doesn't produce a fine and tuned result on the loco speed, whe should be able to modify ourselves the values in ressource.mdb for speed_curve... finally, this confirm what ithought : RM is a closed propiretary software...

 

jodel