Loco Detection and Desired Features

[Fishmanoz]

Jodel, it should be clear from the title that this thread is just a sweep for people's guesses on when LD might come out, not somewhere to discuss its features.

 

You might like to do a forum search on LD or loco detection to look at the enormous amount of information and speculation about LD features and operation.  It will be clear from those threads what we know LD can and might be able to do. You can use that info to either answer, partially answer, or completely fail to answer your questions.  And if you are lucky, someone like Chris may even give you some links to the previous threads.

 

Everyone is in the same boat as you trying to design layouts now that they hope will work with LD If and when it appears.

[Augustus Caesar]

hi ,

i am also waiting with impatience this major evolution of RM first of all for improving my speed profiles in speed scale mode. 

actually even if the scale factor algorithm calculate a ratio for the speed, the speed profile are like an "S" !.... without ways to correct it ( complex speed curve in CV29 for ex..).

my second question is to know if Hornby will  choose a presence detection in a canton railway ( with Railcom for ex) or if Hornby choice a passing detection in front of a captor...

as i am designing my future railway lay out, it is important to know that for defining isolated raiway cantons or not...

thanks

 

jodel. 

[Fishmanoz]

Jodel, I'm having trouble understanding some of what you've said.  What do you mean by a canton railway in this context?

 

By presence detection, I'm assuming you mean block detection or BD.  there is already a lot of content on BD v LD and how they are quite different in operation, in fact so different that some have had trouble getting their heads out of BD mode to understand the proposed LD.  Please do a search to find the previous content.

 

To summarise LD very briefly for you, it relies on sensors mounted in the track which detect ID tags under locos and returns the detected loco ID to RM along with speed and direction.  What can then be done is defined in the list of loco detection commands in the sticky thread by that name at the top of this forum. You can include a sensor in your RM track plan and look at exactly how you can use them.  The most powerful feature is of course the ability to initiate a program.

[hosh]

Here's a few reasons to not be hopeful about Hornby LD.

 

1/ Their initial attempt never came to fruition. This was actually a blessing for their reputation and their customers.

 

2/ Details about their initial attempt are still publicly posted at the head of this forum. This is a major cause for pessimism since it seems they have yet to realise how embarrassing that is and have yet to delete it and hope no one ever remembers.

 

Frankly, if you're looking for some automation system for model railways, then you're in the wrong place. No where in the foreseeable future is Hornby going to release an LD product worth spending coin on.

[jodel]

Hello fishmanoz , hosh,

yes i mean block detection. ( canton detection is a bad translation i think). 

to be more precise, i think that  the block dectection can be done either with a passing sensor at the input of a track section, and another at the output of a track section. presence dection can be done with a current detection on all a track section when the loco is on this section. in this case you have to isolate this section form the adjacent one.( before and after.). 

in fact i don't understand Hornby position because most of DCC devices maufacturer have either presence detection, or with a passing sensor . some of them ( ESU , Digitrax)  have also transponding detection on an occupied section by railcom or loconet. 

if hornby wants to do transponding, they can do it with a sensor wich send the loco ID to RM, i think that all the automatic track system found on sales web site don't need to have a transponding.

so in that case why Hornby don't use a standard ralicom, or loconet  system ?

i think also that the great silence from Hornby about the loco detection is not a good signal.

and also i think that the loco detection as decribed in the RM guide for calibration loco speed profiles, is not a loco ID dectection : it could be operationnal only for catching the times on a ring only, independently of the furutre loco ID dection... it is not the same work for hornby to built it.

regards 

 

jodel

[96RAF]

The Rocrail manual speaks to and the application supports all types of block detection.

 

I have pointed this out before and wondered why Hornby RM is trying to reinvent the wheel.

[Nick_]

I'm guessing that 'Bock Detection' and RailMaster 'Loco Detection' are two different things aimed at different problems/solutions. As I see it:

Block Detection requires a layout to be divided into sections or 'blocks' by physically creating a whole series of isolated sections. 'Block detection' then allows you to determine if 'something that draws current is in the 'block'. From this it is possible to create a 'program' to automate the running of a layout.

Loco Detection requires sensors to be place around the layout and allow RailMaster to know that a specific loco is at a specific point and added to that RailMaster already knows how fast it is going and in which direction it is going. This will allow RailMaster programs to be modified so that instead of doing every thing by time it can be done by location instead. For example instead of at say the 30 second time instructing a specific loco to change speed to step 0 (or stop) and hope it stops in the station, if a sensor was at say just before the platform when that sensor indicated a specific loco had been seen the loco could be instructed to stop thus garanteeing it would stop in the station.

So Loco Detection is a different form of automation to block detection and really it depends on what you want to do. It also sounds like it should be somewhat simpler to retro-fit because it won't require multiple isolated track sections to be created.

[Fishmanoz]

Good summary Nick.

[96RAF]

Yes a good summary.

 

Maybe my choice of word BLOCK was ill conceived as Rocrail controls designated 'blocks' - not necessarily isolated sections, by way of sensors, which can be placed at each/either end and/or in the middle of a 'block'. The sensor interface then tells the application what to do to the loco when one of these sensors is triggered such as slow down, stop, revert to previous speed, reverse direction, etc, etc.

 

Such sensors can be  - a magnetic switch, IR photo-optic, bar code, RFID, etc, but the underlying principle is 'something happened -  report it in', the application knows what to do next according to previous settings and sends that message to the track via the controller. Obviously the more sensors in a 'block' the more refined control can be.

 

It would just be nice to have LD to play with and see how much RM benefits from it.

Rob

[jodel]

Yes good summary,

but i would like to add that with a bloc detection ( by presence or by passing detection) , it is not necessary to have transponding devices. and also the devices for transponding are more expansive than presence or passing detection only... 

i think that with block detection the automation system does not work with the time, but it works like a shift register wich contains the loco ID. this system needs a manual initialisation of the first block with the loco ID palced on it,  at the start up.   and after the system , at each new detection, shifts the loco id in the following register sections, according with the direction of the loco .

i think the price is also an important factor of choice for an automated lay out.

thanks

jodel 

[96RAF]

Yes I had forgotten to mention that some automation (such as RM at present) requires the user to initialise the loco direction and location, else it is all nonsense to the application, whereas 'intelligent' sensing knows what is where and which way it is facing.

[hosh]

Amp detection vs sensors (1) - there is no difference. Either can be made to work like blocks or individual sensors. Everything after this is a simple matter of how the software uses the information available to it.

 

Amp detection vs sensors (2) - as far as installation goes, both need wiring to that section of the layout, and then the sensors need to be placed. This is extra work, is an eye sore and is prone to getting dirty and failing. The only extra with Amp detection is the installation of plastic joiners. Thus, imo, any system with above/in track sensors ought to be dismissed as junk by comparison.

 

Transponding and Sensors that read loco IDs - obsolete. Any automation system, worth more than it's weight in doggy doo, will initiate a new train on the layout and then track it through time. Any time a sensor is triggered, the system already knows what train it is and it's heading. Any system that doesn't do this is utterly worthless junk.