Railmaster with Hattons 21-pin decoder

[Tim765]

Hi,

I am having problems getting Railmaster (v 1.65) to run a new loco - a Bachmann Class 350 Desiro 4-car EMU. It came from Hattons, with a Hattons 21-pin decoder. The power car runs fine under analog control. Railmaster will read from the decoder, and write to it, and the power car beeps as normal. However the power car will not run. I notice that the CV list says the chip is a Hattons 8-pin one. Is this the cause of the problem? I emailed Hattons and they said to reset the decoder via CV 8, which I did to no effect. Any ideas appreciated, thanks.

Tim

[Fishmanoz]

Hi Tim, welcome to the forum. First, a question - when you say it runs under analog control, do you mean with the chip installed, or a blanking plug?  If a blanking plug, try it with the chip installed and see what you get.

 

As for the 8 v 21-pin, that will be irrelevant, it will be only because that is what RM is reading for manufacturer and decoder type and will have no effect beyond that. That said, the only thing that comes to my mind is a faulty decoder.  

 

Wha I'd like you to do, despite your saying you are running v1.65 is to download the latest from the link at the top of the RM and install it over your existing version (Rule 1 - first install the latest, then see if you still have the problem).  If that makes no difference, I'm for taking it back to your supplier. 

 

Just a final check of my assumptions though: you can run other locos ok? And writing 8 to CV8 did make it revert to address 003, and you have then been able to change that address?

[Rcik]

Hi. if Faishmanoz' suggestion is unsuccessful, I would suggest trying to swap decoders with another loco. I did have a similar problem fitting a hattons 21 pin decoder to a class 150 and tried quite a few things before reading somewhere on the web that some decoders had less protection and/or more sensitive to certain signals when fitted in certain locos. Advice was to try different manufacturers decoders across models. I did this and managed to get both decoders working when swapped between locos. If you haven't got a spare one, laisdcc 21 pin decoders can be bought at a reasonable pirice from an auction site as a test to try a different one (and I find these decoders very good). It is also very easy to fit a decoder in 350 so worth a try. 

[96RAF]

Without naming names, it is well known that certain decoders can behave fine in one chassis (even from the same manufacturer) but play up in another, yet even then they can be OK with one manufacturers controller and not another brand, so it's down usually to variances in compliance of each component (decoder, chassis pcb, controller) despite each complying individually with the requirements (usually NMRA but also EN in Europe), often a combination will throw up a problem.

 

The other thing to note is certain shop decoders are usually cover versions of existing well known decoders, e.g. some Bachmann and Hornby sound decoders are ESU decoders and some are SoundTraxx and no doubt others are clones.

 

Some are made to spec for shops by the well known manufacturrs.

 

It is also worth noting that some decoders such as TCS show stretched zero bit intolerance affecting or prohibiting analogue running, and so it goes on and on ...

[Tim765]

Thanks for the replies. Railmaster is vsn 1.651. It connects ok but doesnt want to download any newer versions so I assume that is the latest.

I am test-running the power car under analog control with the decoder installed. (I wasnt sure you could do this without frying it, but it and others seem ok so far..).

I dont have any other locs running a 21-pin chip, only 8-pinners, so nothing to swap this chip with.

My other locos and decoders are all Hornby, and run fine. I have been able to switch the address to 007 and reset by CV8 set it back to 003 default; which I tried incase that caused the problem, but it didnt make any difference.

The car did run when I first installed the decoder, although intermittently, and without a f-key for the lights. I suspect bad contact from the loco's pins to the chip. I've read of people jiggling them to improve the connection, but I can't get anything from it now. No bent pins either as far as I can see.

I think I will have to try different decoders. I have heard RM doesnt like non-Hornby decoders. Is it worth fitting a 21-pin to 8-pin converter and then trying one of my R8249 Hornby decoders?

[Fishmanoz]

Unfortunately your assumption about your RM being the latest is incorrect due to the way HRMS does minor updates. Download from the link to be sure. 

 

Save for the qualifications given given by others above RM, I'm assuming with eLink is not known to have issues with other brands. However, yes you can certainly try the converter and an 8249. 

[96RAF]

The only problems I have had is RM itself which often fails to recognise an alien decoder.

 

One more thing you could check is that the decoder is set to 128 speed steps. The fact it runs with a decoder fitted on analogue says DC running is enabled and virtually proves the wiring side and to a greater extent the decoder as well, so my guess is down to the way the decoder speed steps are configured.

 

RM will only self update on big revisions, for lesser changes you have to do it manually from the download link.

[KPJunk]

I am looking at buying a Class 66 Freightliner from Hattons and I emailed them re the position with their Hatton decoder being fitted and the fact I had a Hornby Elite . 

The Class 66 will be a Bachmann model as Hornby do not produce a Freightliner ( A distant relative used to drive one ) . It would normally be fitted with a hatton 21 pin decoder by them .

the reply back from Hattons stated 

Start

"Thanks for your email, with the Hornby Elite I would recommend using a Hornby decoder as we know for certain it will work. The Hatton's decoders can be a little hit or miss as to whether they work. I would therefore recommend the Hornby Sapphire, which is quite expensive but will definitely work;"

End

Use of the 21pin to 8pin converter would be made when fitting

Keith 

 

[96RAF]

To fit a Sapphire to a 21 pin socket you just unplug the 8 pin harness adaptor from the decoder. It's then a case of aligning the blank pin with the socket which ensures it is fitted the correct way up as well.

[LMS_Dave]

Read this thread with some interest.  I've been successfully using 3 Bachmann Branchline 36-557 decoders with my RailMaster/eLink set-up since 14 April 2014 and had 4 of the same batch in-store for future 21-pin locos.Yesterday I ran-up my RailMaster application and it auto-downloaded an update.  I then successfully set-up an 8-pin installed loco and then tried to set-up a 21-pin loco using one of my Bachmann 36-557 decoders from store.  Both the 8-pin and 21-pin locos were brand new and I had run them both up on DC, both forward and reverse, for 30 minutes each direction, prior to DCC addition.The 21-pin installation failed.  I tried to set the Extended Address - nothing.  I tried to read the Manufacturers' details and, at first, it picked-up the Manufacturer, but not the Version of the decoder, then wouldn't read anything at all.  I tried writing to CV8 and nothing happened.  CVs 1 to 6 either struggled to read or were all set to 000.  I replaced the blanking plate and the 21-pin loco ran fine, again, on DC.So, I swapped to second Bachmann 36-557 decoder from store.  Still nothing.  Wouldn't read or write anything.So, I then swapped to a different 21-pin loco, also brand new and successfully run-up on DC.  I tried a 3rd Bachmann 36-557 decoder from store.  Still nothing.Finally, I turned to the 3 previously Bachmann 36-557-fitted locos and, yes, they too no longer work with my RailMaster/eLink set-up.Since the earlier 8-pin DCC-fitted loco was still working absolutely fine with my RailMaster/eLink my overall conclusion is that the auto software update has somehow erased the, previously fine, Bachmann 36-557 from the database of supported decoders.I have now ordered a set of 21-pin to 8-pin convertors to fit 8-pin decoders which I also have in store.Disappointing and frustrating.  I cannot, for the life of me, figure-out why an update should remove a decoder that was previously supported without some sort of accompanying warning?  Come to think of it, is there a list of supported decoders anywhere?

[Chrissaf]

@LMS_Dave

Personally I would be looking elsewhere for the solution to your problem.

.

I too have had a situation where previously configured and working locos failed to have their CVs read and written on the program track and reporting "Decoder not in Database" error messages, which were completely untrue as they were known Loksound decoders (albeit in my case they were still running absolutely fine on the main track). After many months of intermittent CV reading / writing frustration, which coincidently did seem to coincide with an RM software update. I solved the problem by removing the wires from the 'Prog A&B' terminals on my Elite. Removing some tarnish on the wires with 'wet n dry' paper. Inserting a small folded over piece of 'Wet n Dry' into the terminal spring clamp and working the paper back n forth to clean the spring clamp connector terminals internally. Using a track rubber on my Prog track piece and re-terminating the cleaned wires into the cleaned 'Prog A&B' terminals and 'hey presto', all the CV reading issues I previously had disappeared. The apparent link with a RM software update turned out to be pure coincidence.

.

The 'Prog A&B' connections carry far less current than the main track output and seem to be susceptible to tarnishing up over time. DCC needs the complete signal path to be spotlessly clean, particularly the CV reading / writing signal path.

.

PS - the other end of my Prog wires are soldered directly to my Prog track piece.

[Nick_]

The other thing to try is to disconnect the track power connectors from your eLink and just leave it connected to the programming track. I have occasionally had problems reading decoders and this has always sorted the problem.

I now have a double pole switch which allows me to disconnect track power without having to remove the cables. 

only one of my decoders are Hornby, the others are TCS, Lenz, Hattons and DCC Concepts and they all work fine.

[Chrissaf]

I used to have to perform the TIP that Nick has documented. However, once I implemented the cleaning process documented in my previous post above. I found I no longer had to disconnect my running track when programming decoders.

[96RAF]

I would submit a help request asking for the Hattons 21-pin decoder to be added to the database as it seems RM is picking up on Hattons ID and assuming an 8-pin version.

[LMS_Dave]

Read this thread with some interest.  I've been successfully using 3 Bachmann Branchline 36-557 decoders with my RailMaster/eLink set-up since 14 April 2014 and had 4 of the same batch in-store for future 21-pin locos.Yesterday I ran-up my RailMaster application and it auto-downloaded an update.  I then successfully set-up an 8-pin installed loco and then tried to set-up a 21-pin loco using one of my Bachmann 36-557 decoders from store.  Both the 8-pin and 21-pin locos were brand new and I had run them both up on DC, both forward and reverse, for 30 minutes each direction, prior to DCC addition.The 21-pin installation failed.  I tried to set the Extended Address - nothing.  I tried to read the Manufacturers' details and, at first, it picked-up the Manufacturer, but not the Version of the decoder, then wouldn't read anything at all.  I tried writing to CV8 and nothing happened.  CVs 1 to 6 either struggled to read or were all set to 000.  I replaced the blanking plate and the 21-pin loco ran fine, again, on DC.So, I swapped to second Bachmann 36-557 decoder from store.  Still nothing.  Wouldn't read or write anything.So, I then swapped to a different 21-pin loco, also brand new and successfully run-up on DC.  I tried a 3rd Bachmann 36-557 decoder from store.  Still nothing.Finally, I turned to the 3 previously Bachmann 36-557-fitted locos and, yes, they too no longer work with my RailMaster/eLink set-up.Since the earlier 8-pin DCC-fitted loco was still working absolutely fine with my RailMaster/eLink my overall conclusion is that the auto software update has somehow erased the, previously fine, Bachmann 36-557 from the database of supported decoders.I have now ordered a set of 21-pin to 8-pin convertors to fit 8-pin decoders which I also have in store.Disappointing and frustrating.  I cannot, for the life of me, figure-out why an update should remove a decoder that was previously supported without some sort of accompanying warning?  Come to think of it, is there a list of supported decoders anywhere?

For me, this is definitely a software issue.  See my other post under the thread https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/hornby-elite-and-bachmann-36-557-decoders/?p=2/

[Fishmanoz]

See my reply to your DCC forum thread you've referenced.  Just noting though, it's quite irrelevant how many pins a decoder has as far as programming it is concerned.  All the basic CVs are exactly the same.  There may be some special to type CVs different depending on decoder type, but usually only in sound decoders. But as long as you know what these CVs are, you should be able to read and write them.

[LMS_Dave]

Thanks for everyone who took the time to reply to me on here - both threads!  Having had some sleep, cleaned everything, run-up my RailMaster/eLink set up without the Track connector in-place and tried 3 of my spare 4 decoders across both versions 1.65 and 1.65.1, there is absolutely no discernible pattern to the results I obtain.  Sometimes the 36-558s read/write CVs, sometimes they don't and, even less often, I get them to run on Track.  On those occasions that RailMaster does read my 36-557 it shows-up as CV8=141 "Throttle-Up (Soundtraxx)" and CV7=081 "Soundtraxx/BM 36-558".  Clearly, that last detail is inaccurate ie 36-558 vs 36-557.  So, my (new) guess is that RailMaster can sometimes see a 36-557 as a 36-558 and allow it to be read/written/run and other times it fails.  So, I'm going Fishmanoz's advice to ask HRMS to look at it.  Meanwhile, my 21- to 8-pin adapters are on their way from Hattons...

[LMS_Dave]

Apologies for being somewhat tardy in closing-off my entry here.  All of the problems I experienced with my 21-pin decoders were resolved quite simply after I'd spent a few hours of reflection and searching on the 'net.  Quite by chance, I was trying to add locos which, numerically, fell beyond the 64th item on my loco listing in RailMaster.  It turned-out that my decoders had, despite the software warnings, all programmed-up fine but wouldn't function because of another previously documented problem in the RailMaster software here https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/railmaster-has-limit-on-the-roster-of-64-active-locos/?p=1.