Hornby Accessory Decoder

[JohnieP]

I have a couple of questions regarding my Hornby Accessory Decoder.

R406 Hornby Light Colour Signal

I have the R406 Hornby Light Coloured Signal. I have wired this up to one of the ports in the Hornby Accessory Decoder. I have set the CV value for this port to 0 so that this is now continuous. Originally I wired this up incorrectly. I put the green wire in the C, Black in - and Red in +. When I pressed the control button on the Hornby Elite both the Green and Red lights came on. I then changed the wiring to the following Black to C, Red to + and Green to -. This time when I pressed the control button the green light came on. When I pressed the button for the other direction the Green light went off but no red light came on. Have I wired the light signal correctly?

Peco Surface Point Motor (PL-11)

I have Peco Points and Peco Side Mounted Points (PL-11). I wired this up to the Hornby Accessory Decoder with the following. Green to C, Black to -, Red to +. When I tested this the point motor changed in both directions. However, when I tried it on the point it changed in one direction but not the other. When I clicked the control button this time the point didn't change in either direction. I increased the CV setting for this outlet to 8 but I still have the same issue. Have I wired this up correctly?

Many thanks,

Jon

[96RAF]

My R406 signal lights have the green wire connected to the metal part of the signal and the black and red wires connected to the lights so your first connection was correct. Mine are led lights not bulbs and the blurb says they operate off DC or AC. I killed one of mine by putting the red and black across a DCC track., so jad to take it apart. There is an SMD resistor in there and a couple of SMD diodes. I had to replace the leds.

Wiring out of the point and accessory decoder - C is common negative, so an earth symbol would be more appropriate here and the +/- terminals would be better labelled as < and >. You shouldn’t be able to have both lights on at once.

 

Point motors - Peco and Hornby point motors have different wiring codes so refer to your paperwork to identify the common wire And the other two are the left and right wires.

As it worked correctly off the track then it seems to be wired OK but installation issues can prevent operation.

 

Rob

[JohnieP]

Hi Both,

Thank you for your advise. I will try this when I get back from work.

[JohnieP]

I'm just wondering if the following would work. At the moment I have the wires directly from the Peco Point motor going to the 3 terminals in the Hornby Accessory Decoder. If I used the 3 AMP 16 Strand Peco PL-38 Electrical Wire and inserted this to the terminals in the decoder instead and then connected these to the wires from the point motor would this give the point motor more power?

Apologises if I am missing the point completely (Pun Intended  😎)

[96RAF]

No it won’t give it more power.

The acc decoder pushes out what it does and nothing more.

The longer and thinner the link wires the more this power is degraded. The answer is use as short a connection as possible and as heavy a gauge wire as practicable.

A link wire may make for a more reliable connection which will work better but it is no magic wand.

Rob

[96RAF]

Back to the R406 led version. This is AC capable as it has reverse diodes across the leds in addition to the resistors, see picture below showing one of the two diodes and both resistors.

 

This may affect some of Chris’s proving tests above.

Rob

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[Chrissaf]

Wiring the R8247 to the R406 signal.

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This previous post written by Hornby Customer Care explains wiring the R8247

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/r406-amp;-r8247-points-and-accessory-decoder/

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The HCC post above confirms that the R406 uses the Green wire as the common [R8247 C terminal], the Red wire [R8247 + terminal] and Black wire [R8247 - terminal].

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There are two versions of the R406 signal still circulating in the retail market, both of which STILL use the same R406 product code (just to cause confusion). The earlier version uses incandescent bulbs and the later version uses 3mm round LEDs. It is very difficult to tell the two versions apart just by looking at them. However, one easy way to tell if your R406 is based on LEDs or bulbs, is that LEDs will run cold to the touch when illuminated. The bulb on the other hand will very quickly get hot to the touch when lit up. One of many reasons that LEDs are a preferred lamp technology.

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The LED version of the R406.

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EDIT: This drawing of the LED version of the R406 has been updated with a revised resistor connectivity arrangement. Rob (RAF96) kindly took a LED R406 apart and traced out the internal component wiring. It would appear that Hornby have deployed the resistors in this unbalanced format in an attempt to balance the illumination brightness between the Green and Red LEDs. Red LEDs typically have a forward bias voltage of about 1.7 to 2.1 volts DC. Whereas, Green LEDs require a forward bias voltage of about 2.7 to 3.3 volts. Thus in this revised schematic, the Red LED has both resistors in the series path to drop more supply voltage across them.

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LEDs are semi-conductors and can only pass a current (& light up) when the voltage polarity applied to them is the correct way round. The AC Bypass diodes allow the LEDs to be used on an AC supply and will make it a little more difficult for the tests documented below to identify whether the R406 is Bulb or LED based. The boxes with the R in it, represents the LED current limiting resistors [the two black blocks marked 102 (1,000 ohms) in Rob's photo post, later in this thread].

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The Bulb version of the R406.

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Bulbs (unlike LEDs) are NOT polarity sensitive and will light up whichever way voltage is applied. With the bulb version, putting a positive or negative voltage on the red wire and the opposite voltage on the black wire will cause BOTH bulbs to light up. If only the Red lamp lights up, then the likelihood is that the Green and Black wires have been cross-wired at the factory......but do see the list of six tests to perform below before jumping to that cross-wired conclusion.

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Using a PP3 9 volt brick battery to test your R406, identify what type it is and prove the wiring colours.

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Performing the tests below with a battery will prove the type and correct operation of the R406 and prove the wire colours being used. It will also eliminate the R8247 configuration from the diagnostics. Once you know what type of R406 you have and the correct wiring colours to use (by performing the tests below). You can then focus on why it is not working as designed with your R8247 decoder.

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It may be that the tests below will end up proving the issue to be a faulty R406 signal and not the Accessory Decoder at all, so the six tests below are worth performing for that alone. There is some anecdotal evidence to indicate that there may be many faulty (some just mis-wired) R406 signals in the supply chain. See Rob's TIP in a later post below about unscrewing the R406 base to see what wire, Green or Black is connected to the signal post and being used as the common return. It should be the Green wire according to Hornby documentation.

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Note that these tests are ONLY VALID using a DC power source such as a battery. Do not use an AC power source.

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Note:There is some previous anecdotal evidence on the forum that some R406 signals may have left the Hornby factory incorrectly wired [Green and Black wires crossed]. Thus these tests documented below will also test for correct wiring colour function. The stated results of the six tests below are based upon the R406 signal not having any faults, if you get test results that do not match the expected documented outcome of all the six tests below, then it is more likely that your R406 is faulty.

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1) Battery positive on Red wire and battery negative on Black wire................

If both lamps light up then R406 is bulb type.

If only the Green lamp lights up then R406 is LED type.

If NO lamps light, then suspect that the Green & Black wires have been crossed at the factory.

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Note: if one of the bulbs is blown or not seated fully into the holder, then neither bulb will light, this might lead you down the garden path of thinking that wires have been crossed at the factory, so do perform the further tests below to prove conclusively.

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2) Battery positive on Black wire and battery negative on Red wire................

If both lamps light up then R406 is bulb type.

If only the Red lamp lights up then R406 is LED type.

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Note: that the Red lamp lighting up will also be the result if the Green and Black wires have been crossed at the factory.

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3) Battery positive on Green wire and battery negative on Red wire............

Red lamp only should light [bulb OR LED is the same].

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Note: that the Red lamp lighting up will also be the result if the Green and Black wires have been crossed at the factory.

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4) Battery positive on Green wire and battery negative on Black wire.........

Green lamp only should light [bulb OR LED is the same].

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Note: that if LED type R406 nether lamp will light if the Green and Black wires have been crossed at the factory. If bulb type R406 then Green lamp should still light up if Black & Green wires are factory crossed.

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5) Battery negative on Green wire and battery positive on Red wire...........

If Red lamp lights, then R406 is bulb type, if Red lamp does not light then R406 is LED type.

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Note: If performing this test the Green lamp lights or BOTH lamps light, then the most likely scenario is that the Green & Black wires have been reversed at the factory. Both lamps light if R406 is bulb based, and Green only lamp lights if R406 is LED based.

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6) Battery negative on Green wire and battery positive on Black wire.........

If Green lamp lights, then R406 is bulb type, if Green lamp does not light then R406 is LED type.

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Note: If Green lamp lights, then R406 is most likely a bulb type, but if it is indeed a LED type and the Green and Black wire has been reversed at the factory, then a Green LED will light too. Thus a Green lamp lit result in this particular test needs to be cross-referenced to the results of the other documented tests to be conclusive evidence.

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Personal view here, but I think the R406 is oversized and toy like in appearance and bears no resemblance to the real world. I would much rather use one of the more prototypical LED based signals made by the likes of Berko and their competitor equivalents.

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As my reply is a long one, please do not use the 'White Arrow in Blue Box' button. This is not a 'Reply to this post' button. Reply using the 'Reply Text Box' and Green 'Reply' button at the bottom of the page.

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To whom it may concern. This long winded reply is destined to be one of my boilerplate referenced replies with regard the R406 part of it, hence the excessive detail.

[Chrissaf]

Rob, Thank you for providing the additional info about the internal AC bypass diodes and revised resistor connectivity (via email). Thus I have updated the diagram and testing procedure results to incorporate that additional information.

[96RAF]

As noted in Chris’s expansive post above some R406 led units may have been found to be miss-wired. If you find yours doesn’t work as expected and fails those tests above then you are advised to contact Hornby for advice with regard to a replacement.

 

Looking inside the unit. The green wire is a common provided with a ring tag at the free end and connects to the metal lamp post base by way of a screw.

 

The small circuit board mounting the leds and other components is also attached to the metal housing by a screw thus completing the common circuit.

 

The two other wires - red for the red lamp and black for the green lamp - have pin terminals at the free end and run through the lamp post in a slot to the circuit board.

 

By removing the screw in the lamp base the fibre cover can be removed to prove which colour wire is actually connected to the housing and which two run up the post.

 

It is odd that a positive is being run through the metal,housing of this lamp, whilst the switched negatives are shrouded.

 

Rob

[Chrissaf]

With regard to the PECO PL11. The PECO brand uses the same three wire colours as Hornby, but differently. The PECO PL11 uses the Green wire as the common [R8247 C terminal], the Red wire [R8247 + terminal] and Black wire [R8247 - terminal]. With point motors, Hornby use the Black wire as the R8247 C terminal common. Strangely, this is completely opposite to what HCC have stated for the R406 signal, therefore the Hornby wire colour scheme is not consistent across the product range.

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Side [surface] mounted point motors need to be perfectly aligned to work reliably. The fixing screws (Hornby) should not be over-tightened (PECO PL-11 uses pins instead of screws but the principle of not being fitted too tightly is the same). To do so, may distort the casing and cause the solenoid inside to stick. The screws (or PECO Pins) should only be tightened just enough to hold the motor in place and still allow slight movement felt with the fingers.

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Personal opinion here, but based upon my own experience using Hornby R8247 with PECO point motors (PL-10WE not PL-11 though). On paper, the internal CDU (Capacitor Discharge Unit) used in the R8247 should be quite powerful as it uses 4,700uF capacitors. However in practice I found my R8247s gutless when trying to operate my PECO PL-10WE point motors. Once the motor was attached to the point (direct via the integral tabs, so alignment was not the issue), my R8247 just did not provide enough power to overcome the PECO point spring. I had to build an external relay board and connect via an external more powerful CDU and use my R8247s to operate the relays instead, the relay contacts then in turn operated the PL-10We point motors via a high power CDU powered from a 22 volt supply (at 22 volts, this is nearly double the voltage available from the R8247 output).

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However, that said. I do recall posts on this forum stating that some forum members have no issues operating PECO PL-11 point motors with their R8247 Accessory Decoders.

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[JohnieP]

I tried wiring up a different colour light signal last night and this time it worked straight away no problems. One direction has the light as red and the other has it as green. The other light signal may have been faulty I purchased about 5 of these off eBay but the brand new ones I purchased from Hattons worked fine with no problems. 

Just the point motors to sort now  🤔

[Chrissaf]

Thank you JohnieP for your update. I would take Rob's advice and contact Hornby Customer Care regarding the faulty ones. You might possibly be surprised to find that they may offer a no quibble replacement. It is not unknown for HCC to be very accommodating regarding certain faulty products, even if purchased second-hand via ebay.

[JohnieP]

I got the Hornby Elite 2nd hand off eBay. I think the firmware on this was 1.3. I've just looked on the Hornby website and have found that there is new firmware now out. I'm wondering if this may make a difference to the point issue I'm experiencing.

[Chrissaf]

Unlikely, but it is still worthwhile updating the Elite firmware to the current 1.44 level.

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The Hornby documentation for updating the Elite firmware is not very good. See this previous post for much better instructions.

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/updating-firmware-on-the-elite

[96RAF]

This is what changed between Elite  v1.3 and now...

 

Version 1.4 - Support for 29 functions (F0-F28) in momentary or latching modes. Support for dummy car programming. Simplified switching of locos and accessories in control stack. Sapphire decoder support for features. Several user reported bug fixes.

 

Version 1.41 - Controller lockup fixed. Speed knob selection logic changed. Programming of R8215 decoders fixed. Reboot in last mode. Minor display anomalies fixed.

 

Version 1.42 - Dummy car programming wasnt working - fixed. Improved support for Bachmann decoders. Display corruption in Operate mode mode fixed. Support for Select v1.5.

 

Version 1.43 - Xpressnet response fix from Elite Emergy Stop recovery. Bug fix in TTS decoder programming and reading in service mode. Quicker response with Select in Walkabout mode. Feedback from hand controllers to Elite screen. POM for suitable accessory decoders. 

 

Version 1.44 - Elite not handling TTS diesel functions F5-F8 correctly - fixed

 

Worth your while to do the update yourself per Chris’s link. Easy enough if you follow the instructions.

 

Rob