Hornby Select issue with ESU LokSound V4.0 sound chip

[DieselDec]

Hello all

After sustained and unsuccessful frustrating attempts to solve this issue – I’m throwing myself on your mercy as oracles of all things Hornby and DCC.  Please take pity and steer me in the right direction to resolve this issue.  Please bear with me …….

As a very mature new entrant into the model railway world just over 2 months ago, I opted for Hornby DCC (based on the Hornby reputation) “Mixed Freight” starter pack with Select Controller.  2 DCC fitted locos (Jinty and Shunter) – 2 track loops with sidings (expansion pack D) – simple, what could go wrong !

Set up my 6’x4’ baseboard and programmed my 2 locos on my Select as id #1 (Jinty) and id #5 (Shunter).  All worked well and very enjoyable.

Became adventurous and decided to add a “real train loco” and got a Hornby Intercity DCC class 90 and left that programmed on my Select as #3.  All worked well – all Hornby locos / all Hornby DCC chips - enjoyment increased.

THE PROBLEM

Became more adventurous and added a Murphy Models class 071 loco with ESU LokSound V4.0 sound chip – and all hell broke loose.

Took all my Hornby locos off the track and put the Murphy Models loco on to programme loco id on my Select.  As soon as I put the loco on the track, it emitted a high pitched sound with continuous very loud airhorn !  I took the loco off the track, unplugged the power and powered up again.  Placed the Murphy Models loco back on the track and it remained silent.  I proceeded to change the DCC default #3 loco id on my Select as per the instructions and id’d it as loco #7.  The Select seemed to accept the instruction, red function light blinking.  Called up loco #7 but the loco would not move.  I called up #3 and the loco responded !  I tried again to re-programme the Murphy Models loco as id # 7 and again the select allowed me to input the info and seemed to accept the instruction.  However the loco did not respond as id #7 but continued to respond to id #3 !

I removed the loco from the track and put back on the Hornby Class 90 (original id #3) to change this id to avoid a conflict.  I programmed the Class 90 in as #8 and again the Select seemed to allow this.  However the loco would not respond as id #8 but now responded as id #7 !!! (the id I had tried to assign to my Murphy Models loco).  I took the class 90 off the track.

I put the Jinty (original id #1) on the track, but this loco now also only responded to id #7 !!!  I tried re-programming it several times back to #1 and again the Select seemed to let me do this with the Jinty shuddering on the track when the programming was complete – but it would still only respond to id #7 !  Took it off the track.

Put the Shunter (original id #5) on the track and now this loco only responds to id #3 !

I’m now only running the Murphy Models loco with the LokSound chip and the Hornby Intercity class 90 with the Hornby chip – each on its own track loop – both loops connected with Hornby power link wires.  The Murphy Models loco runs fine (id #3) and the Hornby class 90 runs OK as id #7 but with some intermittent speed surge problems (not all the time).  If I try to stop it on track – sometimes its runs on before stopping.  I’ve also experienced some “OL” issue with the Select while running the 2 locos together.  I unplug the Select and power it back on and this resolves the issue.

So – when I had my 3 pure bred Hornby locos with Hornby chips – all worked well, running all 3 locos at the same time and no issues.  I introduce the Murphy Models class 071 with Loksound V4.0 chip and my problems start.

My track is clean and I’ve tested with multi-meter – there is power on all sections.  Both track loops connected with Hornby link wires and the sidings (turn out points) with Hornby electro point clips.  Power is via Hornby 1 Amp power adaptor – supplied with Hornby Mixed Freight pack.  The set up is only 2 months old and loco running time is not abused.

I’ve tried to delete individual loco id numbers from my Select but can’t find out how to do this !  My Murphy Model loco with Loksound Chip has defied all my attempts to programme a new id and won’t let go of the id #3.   

Is the Hornby Select compatible with the ESU LokSound Chip !   Should I “re-set” my Select Controller and try to reprogramme all my 4 locos back in again !

Apologies for being so long-winded but any advice would be very much appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

[Chrissaf]

Hidden away within your very long question was this line:

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Both track loops connected with Hornby link wires

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I assume that this line means the Hornby R8201 Link Wire (kit) that is included in Expansion Pack C (I note that you say you have expansion pack D, so one would assume that you also have Packs A, B and C as well).

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The R8201 Link Wire is meant to be used on Analogue DC layouts. If you have R8232 DCC point clips fitted to all your points, then you shouldn't need to fit any additional link wires.

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Now the thing is that the track clips in the R8201 Link Wire have suppression capacitors inside them that go across the track rails. These capacitors are beneficial in a DC Analogue environment but are detrimental to DCC data signals which are bi-polar signals at a frequency in the 8 to 12 Khz range (Khz = 1,000 cycles per second). Some decoders can tolerate these capacitors being present, but some decoders can not. The capacitors distort the DCC signal and can cause very odd behaviours in some DCC fitted locos. Which may be why only some of your DCC fitted locos appear to be affected. Many, if not all of your described issues could potentially be attributable to DC Analogue suppression capacitors being across the DCC signal path (track).

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Now I am not saying that this is the root cause of your issue with any guarantee, but if you have installed the R8201 link wire kit, it will not be helping.

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Either open up the track power clips and snip out the capacitors in BOTH clips, or remove the R8201 Link Wires completely from your layout. Then factory reset your Select and reconfigure / re-test your locos again to see if there is any improvement.

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I’ve also experienced some “OL” issue with the Select while running the 2 locos together.

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The Select has a limited 1 AMP power supply. If you have indeed got a R8201 Link Wire fitted, the two capacitors in the track clips will be shunting about 150 to 200mA of current through them. That current, plus the current drawn by two or more locos is very likely to trip the Select into OL (OverLoad). The suppression capacitors block DC current (when used on a DC Analogue layout), but pass DCC alternating current through them when used incorrectly on a DCC layout. Which is another reason why the capacitors should be removed when operating DCC. Also check the main power track clip for any capacitor that may be present incorrectly. Some digital sets were shipped in error with Analogue power clips by the China factory.

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.....but with some intermittent speed surge problems (not all the time).  If I try to stop it on track – sometimes its runs on before stopping.

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These are typical symptoms of Analogue power clip suppression capacitors being present across the track (DCC signal path).

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Is the Hornby Select compatible with the ESU LokSound Chip !

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Yes it is....but note that to get access to more Loksound sound functions (up to F25) you need a Select with firmware version 15. Prior to version 15 you could only access F0 to F8.

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Let us know what firmware your Select is running as it may have a bearing on the reported issue as well as the function limitation mentioned above. When the Select powers up, three sequential numbers are displayed for example 11, 30, 03 or possibly 15, 30, 03. It is the first number we are interested in i.e the 11 or 15 number (which may be either 12 or 13 or 14).

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Should I “re-set” my Select Controller?

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Yes - The first thing to do before anything else when experiencing issues using the Select controller. Is to perform a 'factory default reset' of the Select controller. Instructions for doing this are in the Select manual. But of course, in this particular situation deal with the R8201 Link Wire issue first if one is fitted.

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Let me add, that the level of detail in your question is something we see too little of. So congratulations on the amount of detail provided. But it would have been a little more readable if there had been some clear gaps between paragraphs. This is not your fault, because the forum software strips out the first paragraph mark prior to publication of the post. This forum software issue can be overcome by including TWO sequential 'carriage returns' (paragraph marks) at the post preparation (writing) stage. The first one gets stripped out, but the second one sticks to leave a gap. Just like this reply of mine.

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One further TIP. I write long replies. So if you should want to reply to this post please note that the 'White Arrow in Blue Box' is NOT a 'Reply to this post' button. Write any reply you want to make in the 'Reply Text Box' at the very bottom of this page and click the Green 'Reply' button. Thank you.

[DieselDec]

Thanks so much Chrissaf - as a newbie I've been browsing the Forum - do you ever sleep !!!

 

I've just seen another of your posts in the last hour about the R8201 link wire and was surprised to see its for DC use and not DCC.  I've been using this link wire since start up 2 months ago and all the 3 Hornby locos with DCC chips ran smoothly ..... until I introduced my new Murphy Models c.071 loco 3 weeks ago.

 

On the Hornby Mixed Freight (DCC) pack box under "Expand your layout in these easy stages" it says under R8223 Track Pack C - "NB if only a single controler is to be used an R8201 Link wire will be required to make the inner oval electrically live" - so I got the Link Wire kit !

 

Also in the Owners Manual that came in the Mixed Freight DCC box - it says under "Connecting the power" .....

 

"If you have a two-train set - obtain an R8201 Link Wire Pack" - and it illustrates how to connect it !

 

So - I was only following Hornby instructions - why is this info in the Owners Manual and also on the back of the train set DCC box !

 

I'll remove the Link Wire and make another attempt to re-programme my locos and and see what happens.

 

Again thanks so much for the very prompt response.  Very helpful.  Also - can I compliment the Forum on the diversity and usefulness of the topics.  I've learned so much from simply browsing the posts (your knowledge is unquestionable) and I now fully appreciate the statement regarding model railways / trains - "this is not a toy". 

[Chrissaf]

....it says under R8223 Track Pack C - "NB if only a single controller is to be used an R8201 Link wire will be required to make the inner oval electrically live"

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That statement refers to a single DC Analogue controller as opposed to two or more DC Analogue controllers. Not to be confused with DCC, where of course a SINGLE controller must ONLY be used. Hornby will not know if a purchaser of the Expansion Pack C will be using it on DC or DCC as the pack is common to both technologies.

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As I have said before many times. Hornby documentation is lamentable. It is written by 'Marketing' departments and not engineers. The misleading R8201 information is not an isolated case. The reference to DCC has now been removed from the online Hornby Shop R8201 product page description, but retractions in printed documentation media may never get implemented. Well not in my lifetime anyway.

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And yes I do sleep sometimes, unless my insomnia kicks in.

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PS - Note that my first reply has been heavily edited since your reply above, so do please review it again for changes since you last read it.

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PPS - I see the TIP on paragraphs has paid off.

[96RAF]

I wonder if your ESU address is set as 4-digit (long or extended) format even though it is number three, i.e. is it 0003 not 3 as the Select cannot correlate a loco address outwith the range 1-59. If so the address information will be stored in CVs 17 & 18 and pointed to by a bit setting in CV29.

 

Now the problem is your Select has no way of changing CV29 Or any other CV except CV1 (We would generally recommend a reset of the decoder as well as of the Select, but again the problem is your Select cannot reset a decoder.

 

You did not say which firmware revision state your Select has but as can be seen below v1.3 improved programming for ESU decoders.

 

Version 1.0 - Initial release. Point and accessory addresses start at 60 in order to use all groups of four up to last address 99. Able to control functions 0-4.

 

Version 1.1 - Point and accessory addresses now start at 61 through 99 to accord with NMRA addressing groups. Users upgrading from v1.0 should readdress all their points and accessory addresses to the new system. Able to control functions 0-8. Able to program on the main (POM).

 

Version 1.2 - Start up screen shows revision state. Improved throttle interface. Changes to setting up default direction switching. Resume operations after a power down/restart.

 

Version 1.3 - Programming improved for ESU Loksound v4.0 sound decoders.

 

Version 1.4 - Minor update to correct function control issues.

 

Version 1.5 - Major system upgrade to extend function range 0-28 in support of sound decoders. Change to function methodology.

Rob

[DieselDec]

Thanks so much Chrissaf and Rob for your valuable advice - I really appreciate it.

 

Apolgies for the delay in responding but as a new member to The Forum I used up my 2 response limit on first contact and so was blocked for 24 hours.

 

Firstly, I can confirm my Select seems to be the latest firmware edition - LCD screen comes up on power up as "15-30-03".  And Rob, I left my Murphy Models c071 loco as id #3 because I couldn't change it to another id - this is where my problems started.  I was still using the Hornby 1 amp power transformer for track / loco power.  My multi meter shows me the track is getting 5.4 volts (all around the loops).  I confess I wouldn't know what to do with CV values - I can't access on the Select.

 

I did as you guys suggested and removed the Hornby Link wire connection - on examing, both had the capacitor installed.  I also opened the Hornby Power Track cover (between the track) and there was no capacitor.  With all locos off the track I then set about re-setting the Select.

 

It was difficult - when I reached the 3rd step with the Select LCD screen flashing "0" - on pressing the Select again (as per the re-set instructions) nothing happened (I made sure the Select button was fully depressed for good contact).  I repeated this process several times with the same result !  On my 7th attempt,  with "0" displayed on screen and having pressed the Select button several times the red light indicator started to flash and the LCD screen displayed "03".

 

I scrolled through the Select and this was the only loco id present.  Stage 1 complete.

 

I put my Murphy Models class 071 on the track and the loco went around the track as id #3.  I stopped it and attempted to re-programme the id to #9.  Failed several times with the Select failing to accept the new id address.  On the fifth atempt - it worked and now my class 071 loco was id #9.  Also this loco (with the ESU LokSound V4.0 chip) started to run through its full sound library without me doing anything - something it didn't do when I originally got it - it was limited to fewer sounds !  It was a revelation with loud engine whine turn over and start up and the engine sound straining on acceleration and the air brakes and wheel squeel on deacceleration and stopping - absolutely fantastic - its the sound that makes the railway reality.  The Murphy Models c071 behaved impeccably - pulling away smoothly, running and stopping smoothly.

 

Took off the c 071 and I put my Hornby Intercity c90 on the track and proceeded to reprogramme it - after several attempts on the Select it finally accepted id # 7 and went around the track but still surged a little when I stopped it !    I put both locos on the track - one on each loop.  With the c90 running around the inner loop I started up the Murphy Models loco and this seemed to suck up more power on start up with the c90 slowing down and then I got an "OL".  Unplugged and repowered and both locos worked ok but again with the Hornby c90 surging a little on stopping.

 

Now this is really strange - I took both locos off the track and put the Hornby Jinty on to reprogramme its id.  Before my problem started - this loco was id #1 but "assumed" id #7 after I first introduced the murphy models c 071.  I couldn't programme the Jinty on the Select but when I selected #1 - the Jinty started to move !!!  I can't explain this.  Like the c90, it also surged a little on stopping.

 

I still was uncetain about the Hornby power track - so I removed its connecting wires and set up a separate test track with a few additional track pieces.  I attached the power wires coming from the select to the fish plates on the test track, checked with my multi meter and got 5.41 volts.  I put my Hornby Shunter (formerly id #5 but reverted to id #3 when I originally introduced my Murphy models loco with ESU Loksound chip) on the test track and again had difficulty reprogramming it.  After several attempts it accepted id #5 and worked ok.

 

Put my main track back together and because I still had some worries about power issues (even though track is clean) I swapped my 1 amp transformer for the Hornby 4 amp transformer.  I now have 4 working locos which can all run together - although the c90 and the Jinty still sometimes surge on stopping.  The Murphy Models loco operates like a dream.

 

I get the occasional / erratic "OL" when running the 2 big locos together - can't pin down what is causing this but will keep investigating.  I still have a niggle about the DCC signal strength and find myself anticipating an "OL" which limits the enjoyment of operations - but I'll no doubt get over this.

 

Would the "Elite Controller" solve all my issues !  Again thanks so much for all your support - I've learned a lot and very much appreciate your helpful advice.  Its good to be on The Forum.

 

 

 

[Rog RJ]

I can't help much but when measuring DCC voltage, use the AC (alternating current) position on you meter.  You should get approximately 15 volts.  You cannot measure DCC voltage accurately with most meters as the frequency of DCC is too high but it does allow you to compare voltage accurately enough for comparison.

 

If you are only getting about 5 volts on AC something is definitely wrong.

[Chrissaf]

I concur with what Rog has just written. DCC is a bi-polar square wave (alternating) voltage. You need a "True RMS" (expensive) meter that can measure frequencies in excess of 10Khz to measure the DCC voltage accurately, but even a cheap meter will give an approximate voltage reading. The multi-meter needs to be on the AC [not DC] range and you should get a reading in excess of 12 volts and nearer 15 volts (13 to 14.5 volts is more typical). Less than 6 volts on the AC range does not sound right, unless your meter is really old and completely out of calibration. Is your meter on the DC range in error, or making a DC bias reading (some meters have 'DC bias' as a meter reading option, but these type of meters are usually few and far between)

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Put my main track back together and because I still had some worries about power issues (even though track is clean) I swapped my 1 amp transformer for the Hornby 4 amp transformer.  I now have 4 working locos which can all run together - although the c90 and the Jinty still sometimes surge on stopping.  The Murphy Models loco operates like a dream.

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It does seem that the Link Wire was the true crux of your issue, but replacing the 1AMP with the 4AMP power supply is also a wise move, since you had one available. I am assuming that this is a genuine Hornby P9300 4AMP power supply and not some Chinese laptop clone one.

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The lack of consistency when trying to write loco Addresses, might be because you were using the whole layout as your programming track (with the other locos removed). You are more likely to get more efficient results if you swap over the Select output onto a short piece of dedicated programming track. Then there is less track acting as an aerial picking up radiated electrical noise from the environment. The programming data signal is extremely power compared to normal track power (i.e you can't measure it with a meter) and can be swamped by any background electrical noise that might be present.

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Would the "Elite Controller" solve all my issues !

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Difficult to say.......it rather depends upon tracking down exactly what is causing your intermittent issues. If your 5.4 volt meter reading** is actually a reasonably accurate value, then that would seem to indicate that your Select has got a faulty power output stage. The output is based on a semi-conductor H bridge configuration which is fairly complicated technically. It is unlikely to be a power input problem as you measured the 5.4 output voltage from the Select when using both the 1AMP and 4AMP power input supplies.

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Note** could you not get access to second meter to make a comparison reading. Perhaps borrowed from someone you know who has one. If both meters give about 5.4 volts, then that would make the Select being faulty more likely.

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One thing can be said about upgrading to an Elite, it would give you access to the capability to tinker with, read and write loco decoder CVs plus the ability to perform factory resets and the like. So worthwhile doing from that point of view alone, if funds are available to do it. You would also gain a dedicated 'PROG A&B' output on the Elite, thus you would be able to implement a proper dedicated permanently connected 'programming track'.

 

[DieselDec]

Thanks guys - much appreciated.

 

Yes I'm now using the genuine Hornby P9300 4AMP - although it says Hornby P9300W 4 Amp on the back of the transformer.

 

I'm definitely measuring in AC mode on my multi meter (to confirm - it says "AC" beside the measurement displayed on the meters LCD screen).  Still getting a readout of 5.29 when I test the track with the 4 amp transformer and got same reading with the 1 amp transformer.

 

I put the terminals on the Select power output (AC mode on my meter) and it reads a value of 5.3 !!!

 

I put the probes on the "15 volt accessory" slot on the Select and the value started at 3.4 and dropped immediately to zero !

 

Do I have a faulty Select Controller !!!  Its almost brand new - 2 months old out of the box.  Is this my problem !!!   Can I test the Select Controller in any other way !

 

With your advice - Looks like I'm homing in on the issue.

 

Cheers. 

[Chrissaf]

I would test your meter first on a another known AC voltage source first, before jumping to the conclusion that the Select is faulty.

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Just for clarity as you didn't specifically say.

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I assume that when you measured the 15 volt Accessory output, you DID change the meter setting from AC to DC. The 15 volt output on the Select is DC. It is in fact teed straight off the 15 volt DC input.

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Personally, unless proven otherwise, I would be suspecting the meter. Have you tried putting fresh batteries in it. Partially discharged batteries will affect the readings the meter makes.

[DieselDec]

Thanks Chris - I've tested another multi meter and the reading from the Select is 15.0  and on the Track 14.7 all around the loops.

 

It looks like my first meter is dodgy (6 months old cheap to buy) - its now in the bin.

 

So - I'm back to square 1.  I did reprogramme my Hornby Shunter on my short made up test track completely separate to my railway layout and it did take several attempts to accept the new id !

 

I've already ploughed more than enough funding into my current set up - so might stick with the Select and put the Elite on my wish list.  I've learnt a lot from these chats and that adds to my experience.

 

I'll keep at it - Thanks for the help - you too Roj.  Cheers.

[Chrissaf]

Based upon analysis of everything you wrote, I would have been surprised if it had not been the meter.

Good luck !!!