Mixed Freight 00 Gauge Digital controller to train not working

[Chrissaf]

It should really have gone into the DCC threads, but Admin can sort that out.

I think you have the 'Select' controller, and I have no expertise with that one - I use the Elite.

Digital is VERY fussy about clean track and wheels, so that is the first step in solving this - do NOT use sandpaper, files, scrapers or anything like that on the track!

The old Hornby track-cleaning rubber is a good start, or the pimply side of a scrap of hardboard, rubbed lightly ALONG, not across, the track.

The loco wheels are a bit more tricky, as I doubt you will have the 'regular' cleaning gear of IPA or glassfibre 'pencils'. With care, a cotton bud can make a difference, but be careful you do not damage the little springy wipers at the backs of the wheels - they have to press on the wheels, to pick up the electricity!

Do NOT use WD40 or 3 in 1, they tend to damage the plastics, and do more harm than good.

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Thanks!

[Chrissaf]

Hello all, apologies, but i am such a novice that I didnt even know which forum to post my question under!

I brought my son the Mixed Freight 00 Gauge Digital Train Set approx years ago and realised he was jus too young to manage it.  Last evening whilst watching the final model railway competition he suddenly remembered he had this.  We started to set it up .  Everything looks prestine and had carefully packed away in the box.  Power is going to the controller.  He gets as far as mapping the train to a the number.  The box flashes 8 times not the required 7, which according to the manual confirms there is a problem - but we dont know what that problem is and how to resolve it.

I remember this was happening when we last used it, so not sure if we had damaged it in some way, but he now has this enthusiasm to get it up and running which we think is wonderful, so obviously keen to resolve this.  I am hoping someone here could give us some advice?

Many thanks. 

[Chrissaf]

The Select controller doesn't have a separate programming output. But at the same time it is not recommended to use the main track for the purpose of programming.

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Ideally, you need a spare length of short straight track. You then disconnect the main layout track from the Select and connect this piece of programming track to the Select instead. The programming output is very low power, thus it can be prone to being affected by electrical interference. Using a dedicated short piece of track reduces the possibility of electrical interference being an issue. The other main reason for using a separate piece of track for programming, is that ONLY the loco being programmed must be placed on the programming track. If your previous programming attempts were using the main layout and you had BOTH the freight set locos sitting on the track at that time, then that could be a contributory factor to your issue.

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The digital programming output is VERY low power, it is highly susceptible to the slightest amount of dirt dust and grime on both the track and on the loco wheels. Given that your set has been in storage for a number of years it could probably do with a really good clean. To maximise your chance of successful programming you should thoroughly clean the track rails and wheels. Nothing abrasive. Use a liquid chemical  cleaner that evaporates such as IsoPropyl Alcohol commonly referred to as IPA or medical rubbing alcohol. In the absence of some IPA do not use any metal cleaners that leave a polishing or oily residue behind.

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The locos in the set should still function straight out of the box. I am not familiar with this set so not sure if Hornby set the loco addresses at the factory or not to something other than the default address. I would expect that at least one of the two locos (or maybe both of them) still have the default factory DCC address which is 03.

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Do either of the two set locos (or both) move on the layout when using the default 03 address. Note that when the Select powers up, I would think that it will set itself to address 03 automatically (if it uses the same power up sequence as the Elite). So with the locos on the track and the Select powered, does the act of turning the speed knob make either of both locos move. If not, refer to the Select manual - to select the address 03 and try again. If only one loco moves then try other addresses either side of 03 to see if the other loco moves. I think 04 might be a good starting point for this.

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If you can't get the locos to move on their default factory set addresses, then you are unlikely to be able to successfully program them to a different digital address. As not being able to move on default settings means that there is something fundamentally wrong with your set-up. Possibly just dirt and grime.

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[96RAF]

It is worth checking that the power to track connection is a DCC one as some were incorrectly supplied. This may be a clip in device or a power track with terminals.

Rob

[Chrissaf]

Just to fill in the gaps in Rob's rather cryptic suggestion. There are two types of Hornby track power connectors. DC Analogue ones and DCC Digital ones. As Rob says, there is some substantive evidence that the China factory did include the DC Analogue power version in some digital sets by mistake. The DC clip / track has a capacitor wired across the track, which needs to be removed if the clip / track is going to be used on a digital layout. The capacitor if present severely impacts the ability of the digital controller to program a decoder.

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The image below is Rob's own that he has previously posted in replies. On a power track, the cover sits between the rails.

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/media/tinymce_upload/60b77cda182c6ba1683587dca54bc002.jpg

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[96RAF]

Just to complete the advice, here is the power track...

Rob

 

/media/tinymce_upload/7ebdc3d7c56b0750139ae1b9bc8c25e4.jpg

[Fishmanoz]

Both come with the default 03 address so should work individually on that address without any change being made. Just put either on the track and select Loco 03 as per instructions in the manual. If they work like this, chances are it’s dirty track and or wheels stopping it programming to a new address, as Chris has said.  And you can try pressing down on the loco as you program it to make a better connection.

 

As for a DC power track, to my knowledge this has only ever been the case with the Western Master eLink controller set quite some years ago. Still worth flipping open the cover to check though. 

[jane1707819582]

if i recall correctly the connections onto the track connector can be fickle , setup the track and controller and when the select has gone through it's start up procedure , put a coin across the track , the select should respond by going into an overload condition,

[greennovice]

Hello, thankyou everyone who has taken time to resolve my issues with my train track. This is what I have done so far:

I followed the advice from Chrissaf about prising open the cover and taking the capacitor out, I then followed RAF96 and put the capacitor in just as shown in RAF96 image he sent. The track began to work but when I dismantled it to build the full scale track as I only set it up on a smaller scale track. It stopped working after i re-set up. I have even cleaned the track and train wheels 3 times and still it will not work. I then used jane2's advice by putting a coin across the track so that the select should respond by going into overload condition. I then began to read through manual and it mentioned something about trying to connect the controller to the train and that it should flash red 7 times but if it flashes 8 times you should reset it to factory condition, I have done this but after several attempts the light still flashes red 8 times. Could someone please make sense of all this?

[Chrissaf]

I followed the advice from Chrissaf about prising open the cover and taking the capacitor out, I then followed RAF96 and put the capacitor in just as shown in RAF96 image he sent.

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I'm confused. You took the capacitor out as per my diagnostic check (so that means the power clip had the capacitor fitted when it shouldn't have had). Then you say, you put the capacitor back in as per Rob's photo. Rob's post was also advising to take the capacitor out if one was found, not re-instate it.

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For DCC to function correctly, none of the power clips or power tracks should have a capacitor fitted remove ALL capacitors that you find.

[Fishmanoz]

GN, can you please confirm that, when you flipped open the power track cover that came with the mixed freight set, you found it to include the capacitor soldered between the rails?  Can you also turn the track over and tell us the R part number moulded onto it?  We would like to be doubly sure that it was the track supplied with the set like this, not some other track you may have already owned, so we can report back to Hornby that they are supplying incorrect parts with the set.

 

And to confirm again for I think the 4th time from the previous page, that capacitor must be removed for the set to work correctly.  Not only that, it is more likely to not work correctly when programming as opposed to running.  What the capacitor does is to look like a short circuit to the higher DCC frequencies or, simply, it reduces the power of the DCC signal.  As the programming signal power is low in the first place, it is more susceptable to failure when shorted out this way than the higher power running signal.

[jane1707819582]

Hello, thankyou everyone who has taken time to resolve my issues with my train track. This is what I have done so far:

I followed the advice from Chrissaf about prising open the cover and taking the capacitor out, I then followed RAF96 and put the capacitor in just as shown in RAF96 image he sent. The track began to work but when I dismantled it to build the full scale track as I only set it up on a smaller scale track. It stopped working after i re-set up. I have even cleaned the track and train wheels 3 times and still it will not work. I then used jane2's advice by putting a coin across the track so that the select should respond by going into overload condition. I then began to read through manual and it mentioned something about trying to connect the controller to the train and that it should flash red 7 times but if it flashes 8 times you should reset it to factory condition, I have done this but after several attempts the light still flashes red 8 times. Could someone please make sense of all this?

i think the loco decoders will need resetting ,the Select cannot do this though , ask at your model shop if they can do it , or at your local model club . 

 

[96RAF]

Try resetting the Select per the user manual and then try to write new addresses to each loco. 

Rob

[greennovice]

Hello

Ys it was soldered between the rail when i opened it.  It is removed altogether.

The R-part number on he track is R8206.

Please let me know if you need anything else and once again thank you for taking the time to help me. 

[Chrissaf]

The R8206 is a DC Analogue power track. Its DCC equivalent is a R8241

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As long as you have cut out and removed the capacitors from all the power clips and power tracks that you are using on your layout, then that should effect an immediate improvement in your ability to use the Select to configure your loco DCC addresses.

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Go back and review my very first reply on Page 1 regarding the best approach to connecting a dedicated programming track piece to your Select and ensuring clean signal path connections. Ensure that the programming track uses a power clip that does NOT have the capacitor fitted. And try setting your loco addresses again, but now with ALL power track / power clip capacitors removed. Lets us know how it goes this time.

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To be 'belt n braces' also 'factory reset' the Select as RAF96 suggested earlier on this page. Instructions are in the manual.

[Fishmanoz]

Given this set is shipping with the incorrect power track, chances that other DCC sets have also had the DC one must be significant?

 

How Hornby might alert buyers will be a challenge.  With the previous reported instance with the Western Master set, the controller was RM/eLink and the alert was put in RM Latest News with pictures and instructions for removing the capacitor.  That’s clearly not possible with the Mixed Freight. 

 

PS.  I’ve reported this to Adam Chris, I assume you have too?

[Chrissaf]

I’ve reported this to Adam Chris, I assume you have too?

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Not as yet. There is something niggling me that the OP has not 100% confirmed. There is mention of both a power clip AND a power track. If one assumes that a set will only come with one or the other. Then my niggling question is the source of the R8206 power track. Was it in the set, or was it an existing legacy or a new purchase track piece. The OP is yet to categorically state where the R8206 came from.

[greennovice]

Hello All,

I brought the full set adn the extension pack for my son for xmas.  We did not have an existing set.  Everything we have is being used from the purchase.  does this clarify for you.  Would you like me to take some photos and send to someone?

[Chrissaf]

Would you like me to take some photos and send to someone?

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No I don't think that will be necessary.

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But it would be helpful if you were to provide some written feedback as to what you have done with the suggestions previously made by forum contributors. Have you followed the suggestions. Have they resolved your issue. So far the bulk of the information is only flowing one way, from us to you. We need some feedback about what has been suggested so far, so that the results can be analysed and further alternative suggestions made.

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Based upon what you have posted so far....all we know for certain is.

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1. You can't successfully set a new DCC address in the loco (you get 8 flashes and not 7)
2. You have got the wrong type of Track power connector (a DC Analogue one and not a DCC Digital one). Instructions have been given to convert the DC ones to DCC use. But there is still some ambiguity as to whether you have done this modification on all the power clips (i.e was there more than one clip or not).

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To recap regarding the outstanding questions still to be fully answered.

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1. If you have done this power track / clip capacitor removal modification, you haven't given any indication as to whether your original DCC address configuration issue is resolved or still outstanding.
2. You haven't yet confirmed as to whether you can control the locos using the default 03 DCC addresses. If you can't control the locos on their currently set address (that may or may not be set as 03), then trying to change the DCC address is going to fail.
3. You haven't yet confirmed as to whether you have tried configuring the loco DCC address using a short straight piece of track INSTEAD of the main layout track.
4. If you have been using the main layout track when trying to set the loco DCC address, you haven't yet confirmed that you did that with ALL locos removed from the layout EXCEPT the one being configured (although the method in item 3 above is the best way to do it).

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This is a new question not previously asked by anyone.

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You mentioned buying at least one track expansion pack (possibly more). Was one of the packs you purchased the Expansion Track Pack C?

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If you did buy a C pack, then that would contain a R8201 Link wire kit (which consists of two DC Analogue R602 power clips and a short pair of wires). This could account for why you seem to have more than one power clip with your layout. If it was the C pack that includes the R8201 link wires, then you do not fit the R8201 link wires on a DCC controlled layout. You fit R8232 DCC clips to the points INSTEAD. The power clips in the R8201 Link Wire kit contain the the previously documented capacitors and this will prevent you from programming the loco decoder if they are connected to the track you are using to configure the loco DCC address on.

 

[Fishmanoz]

Silly me Chris, having asked a detailed question on whether the power track came from the set or elsewhere, and having also given a detailed explanation of why I was asking, I then had the hide to assume that the yes answer I received meant yes it had come from the set, as opposed to yes I got it from either the set or an expansion pack (there were no previous references to having bought expansion pack/s).

 

Apologies GN, tongue in cheek here, but emphasizing that it helps to answer the questions as asked because it is generally the case that there is logic behind these questions