Hornby Train Stopping on one side of points.

[Topcat351]

Hey everyone, I am currently in the process of completing my Hornby Trackmat layout. I have purchased the Hornby Somerset Belle DCC set and then added various other parts  to complete the layout. Once pieced together and nailed down, the train derailed at a certain point. I however fixed this problem by changing the peco track ( only brand I could buy locally) for a Hornby point. While this stopped the derailment issues the train then began to stall on the outer side of the point. After some careful troubleshooting I found that while the train would stop when the point was switched to the outside track, it was all good on the inner line. Upon switching the point to this side the DCC controller display would turn from 03 to blank and then reset itself. Just wondering if anyone has a solution for this issue.

 

Thankyou

[Chrissaf]

More detail required.

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You say your layout is based on the Hornby Track Mat design, but has a mixture of Peco and Hornby track. I assume therefore that the Peco track is from the Peco ST product range......is this correct?

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Your layout is DCC......have you fitted R8232 DCC point clips to the points to make the track all live?

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If you haven't fitted R8232 DCC clips, what have you done instead to make the layout all live?

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Are you using the Hornby R8201 Link Wire kit?

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If you have used the R8201 Link wire, use the red numbers in the drawing below to indicate the two connection points for it.

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You say the DCC controller resets itself when the point is thrown. I deduce from that, that you are using a Hornby Select controller with a 1 amp power supply that comes with the Somerset Belle set..........is that correct?

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The part of the questions in bold above is the key information I need. I suspect that you have a crossed DCC power feed that is creating a short circuit when you throw the points. But I need the information requested above to make further diagnostic deductions.

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I have shown the standard Hornby track mat layout design below. Please quote the letter character that represents the point location that has the problem. I am assuming that the problem arises when points marked as A & B are thrown together to create the cross-over route, but I have lettered all the points just in case they are also relevant to your issue. Use the numbers in red to indicate which are closest to where any & all track power feed connections are made.

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 /media/tinymce_upload/3fec4c49e33d6bca6d9879523d4ecc71.jpg

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Normally I would ask you to annotate the requested information on the drawing and repost the drawing duly edited, but that would involve an admin approval delay. I have done it this way with numbers and letters to save time. The track layout represents the full Hornby track mat layout, you may not have currently implemented the full plan, but do your best to answer my questions using the provided drawing as a basis.

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TIP: I write long posts. If you intend to write a reply, it would be appreciated if you didn't use the 'White Arrow in Blue Box' button. This is not a 'Reply to this post button. It is best to write any reply you want to make in the 'Reply Text Box' at the very bottom of the page and click the Green 'Reply' button.

 

Particularly as my reply includes an image. If you use the blue button, any reply you write will be held back for image approval. Even though it is already a previously published image.

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As this is your first post. You have one post left that you can use in this initial 24 hour period. Use this second post wisely and provide as much clear detail as you can.

[Topcat351]

Hey mate, Thanks for your reply. In relation to your questions, yes the track is a mixture of peco st and Hornby. I have connected all the points clips and you are also correct in relation to the select controller. I am not using a link wire kit. While this may not necessarily be helpful, I have elected to include a picture of my trackmat below. You will notice that it is of the older variety. The issue is currently with the point in the upper left hand side. Sorry for the lack of information however I am reletively new to the Hornby brand so your reply was greatly appreciated.

 

 

 /media/tinymce_upload/2d9587ffef74a2a0bd3af7b510e48c8d.JPG

[Chrissaf]

OK, since you have fitted DCC point clips to all points and are not using the R8201 Link Wire, then my diagnostic deductions are that your issue is not a basic wiring reversal fault.

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This assumes two things, firstly that you are not using Insulated Rail Joiners on the points that create any of the cross-overs and secondly, that there is only one single layout track connection from the track output of your Select. Please advise if either of these two assumptions are not correct.

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Since the Select is rebooting, then the issue is a 'short circuit' when the train passes over the point at that location. Technically a 'stall' would be where a loco stops due to a loss of physical rail contact and hence loss of electrical current flow. A minor picky point and I apologise for raising it.

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Your posts so far infer that you have a single loco in the form of the Somerset Belle train. But you may have more than one loco and just not mentioned it. So if you have more than one loco.

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Do all trains trip the Select controller power at this point or just one?

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If it is only one loco (train), then the most likely thing to cause that would be the wheels. It may be just a case of checking and adjusting the 'back to back' measurement of the wheels on each axle. Shorts can be generated when the wheels are not the right distance apart. The measurement is taken between the rear side of the wheel to the rear side of the wheel on the other end of the same axle. These need to be no more than 14.5mm. This measurement is critical, even a 0.2mm error can make all the difference. There are special gauges for taking these measurements called 'Back to Back' or 'B2B' gauges. In the absence of one of these, you can use a 'Digital Vernier' scale. A normal ruler is just not accurate enough to tell with any certainty.

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This just mentioned for information. Older locos may have coarser wheels that are not so suited to modern track and be more difficult to convert to DCC, so just be cautious if buying old second-hand stock in the future.

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Example digital vernier.

/media/tinymce_upload/8a952eb1fd5ed1622aece608f59b10e1.jpg

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The issue is currently with the point in the upper left hand side.

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Just for clarity I assume you mean the curved point on the top left hand side. If this is a Hornby point, then they are notorious for causing issues and most on here advise against using them in a layout.

[Topcat351]

Hey Mate, i have been playing around the layout tonight and have seem to have found that the short only occurs when the middle line is connected to the point. While I do not have any other locos to test this theory, I did attempt to isolate the outer line and found it to be perfectly fine once disconnected from the middle line. In addition, the loco itself is able to run along the inner line when the points are switched correctly thus sort of ruling out any issues with the adjacent points. Just wondering if there is any possible reason for the train stopping only when this run is connected to the point? In addition, is there any way in which the short may be easily found?

[Chrissaf]

I have been playing around the layout tonight and have seem to have found that the short only occurs when the middle line is connected to the point. While I do not have any other locos to test this theory, I did attempt to isolate the outer line and found it to be perfectly fine once disconnected from the middle line

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Point of clarity required.

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Are you now saying that you can create the short just by throwing the points in a certain route configuration, even when there is no rolling stock on the track. Or does it still require the loco to traverse the point onto the middle line to create the short.

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You have to remember I can't see what you can see, you will need to paint a detailed picture in words for me to fully understand what exactly it is you mean.

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I have reposted your layout with letters and numbers on [letters for points & numbers for track sections]. You can then say something like I get a short when Point B is switched onto track section 2 or Point A switched to route towards Point B or I get a short when the loco moves from track section 7 towards track section 2 and reaches point B etc. Then it will be easier for me to see what you are trying to explain.

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/media/tinymce_upload/98cd820e3e7685e8c6f0411c8dcfd2f3.JPG

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I have purposely left out letters I & J for points to aid visual reading clarity.

[gilbo2]

Couple of quick suggestions to check which maybe causing your short;

1) Double check you have fitted the point clips correctly, ie between the correct rails as shown in the paperwork. See page 28 of

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/downloads/view/download/item/502 

2) You have not crossed over any power feeds, ie the same terminal of the Select is connected to the same side on each power connecting clip. (A's to A's as on page 7 of the above manual). Also the power connecting clips are all on the side "outer" side as shown in the photos above.

[Topcat351]

Hello again, I have annotated the your diagram in an attempt to better explain the issue. As you already know, Point A is the one which is currently causing the train to stall. However if the line 2 (blue) is disconnected the the loco still has the ability to travel along either of the red routes without causing a short. When this blue section (2) is connected back up, the short will once again occur when the points are switched to line 1. Please also keep in mind that the loco was on the track the for the entirety of this test.

/media/tinymce_upload/6fd0eba996837428c389833baa698f91.png

 

 

[Chrissaf]

Please confirm whether these statements are true or false:

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1. Point A has DCC clips correctly fitted.
2. Point B has DCC clips correctly fitted.
3. There is only one single power feed from the controller to the track and what track section number is it attached to.
4. There is NO other additional wiring linking any tracks together.

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Plus list the point letters that are Peco brand and list the point letters that are Hornby brand.

ie

x, x, x, x, x, x .......points are Hornby

x, x, x, x, x, x .......points are Peco

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Also....when you wrote:

When this blue section (2) is connected back up, the short will once again occur when the points are switched to line 1

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Are you saying that the short occurs when the A point is switched to line 1 but without the loco travelling along that route. That is to say, it is just the act of switching the A point to track 1 that creates the short.

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If so, you will need to repost the drawing annotated to show the switched route position of ALL the points on the layout, including siding points when the short occurs.

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Also......when you wrote:

However if the line 2 (blue) is disconnected the the loco still has the ability to travel along either of the red routes without causing a short. When this blue section (2) is connected back up..........

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When you use the words 'disconnected' and 'connected back up'. Do you mean physically disconnected as in breaking apart the track at the joiners, or do you just mean by switching point B away from the track 2 route i.e as per your red lines on the drawing.

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Sorry for these extra "Also.....when you wrote" questions, but even though you are trying your best to write with clarity. There is still some ambiquity in your choice of words and phrasing. As I said before, I am not looking over your shoulder. I have to rely totally on what you actually write.

[gilbo2]

Have you done the checks I mentioned above?